John A. Broussard

You have your work cut out for you. Posts 333, 351, 355.

"Yes, the sun stopped," post 361.

It isn't easy to get lee to admit to anything. His posts are long and rambling, but persistence finally pays off. Lee firmly believes that, "the sun stopped."

I'll keep working away at him (on another thread) to find out what the consequences are to the sun stopping, but I think he''ll take the usual theistic refuge. "If god wants to make the sun stop, even though it isn't moving, he can do it, period."

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Lessee....

The sun stopped in the sky (ie: Earth's orbit halted and did not magically shatter the surface crust in the slightest), Moses committed genocide without malice, an undetectable magic flood wiped out all human life without any major civiliziation of the time knowing about it, and snakes used to be able to talk.

Does that sum things up?

Is it any wonder why stuff like this is called non-credible?
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Got any?

Thought not.

BadBadBad

Nice summary. A few additional thoughts of my favorite incredible features of the Bible:

Giants, walking dead saints, and suicidal demon possessed pigs.

John A. Broussard

This almost demands a new thread. Something like, "My favorite biblical atrocity."

Maybe a second one, "My favorite biblical absurdity."

Prizes for the best answers?

lee_merrill

Hi everyone,

Well, by that first quote I meant that there is an inexplicable aspect to evil, and then I proceed to give my best definition, which I present in hopes that people might agree with it.

I would subscribe to the second statement...

The same way we would judge whether Idi Amin was inclined to kindness, assuming demons exist, and they interact with people. I think they have! With me, I mean, and with others, such as Rabi Maharaj, who used to invite Hindu deities into himself as part of Hindu worship, and now considers that they are really demons. You might want to read his book, if you are interested, it's called "Death of a Guru."

Yes, I agree with this.

Her family, too, though? They probably didn't help the spies themselves. But this does show they were not against these people, per se.

Then it was considered final, yes, that is my point here.

It does if "final" involves killing people, for the killers to live, and for them to die.

Do you think they would not? This is a presumption of cruelty, or negligence, and the account indicates that they were not given to cruelty (read a little bit about what the Assyrians did to prisoners), or slackness (marching all night, for instance, Josh. 10:9, or fighting all day, Josh. 10:13), or self-seeking (keeping off of the plunder of Jericho completely, except for Achan).

Severe pain can bring a benefit to a person, that is my point here.

And certainly if we take only part of Scripture, we may find faults more easily. Also, this thread seems to be making a criticism of the Bible as it stands.

Not if we have some control in our motive, and if God's motive, and the eventual outcome, is different than what a person who is sinning, plans.

Well no, they have to repent of their motive, which was intending their deeds for a bad purpose.

I believe that people can make real choices, within God's will, and thus God is always in complete control, and yet there is freedom, and sin brings only imprisonment.

Genesis 2:16 And the Lord God commanded the man, "You are free to eat from any tree in the garden..."

Yes, which is why I would insist on such a motive, and which also would be evidence of the supernatural, and of God giving this command.

This I would consider to be a bad motive though, that is not the sort of attitude I would ask for, or expect.

Jeremiah 9:1-4 Oh, that my head were a spring of water and my eyes a fountain of tears! I would weep day and night for the slain of my people. Oh, that I had in the desert a lodging place for travelers, so that I might leave my people and go away from them; for they are all adulterers, a crowd of unfaithful people. "They make ready their tongue like a bow, to shoot lies; it is not by truth that they triumph in the land. They go from one sin to another; they do not acknowledge me," declares the Lord. "Beware of your friends; do not trust your brothers. For every brother is a deceiver, and every friend a slanderer."

Slaughter (with this pejorative connotation) is indeed evil. I bring up the fact that God brings about the death of every person, when this point is made, to make it clear that this implies that all deaths are evil, which implies that infinite life here on earth would be best.

Somehow I am not so confident. Will the cruel people not continue to become more powerful, individually? Terrorists, with a city bomb in their hand? This trend is in the opposite direction, nor do I see signs of increasing maturity in human nature. That was the hope of the League of Nations, and the "war to end all wars," which hope is faint indeed, today.

Vengeance need not be vengeful, that is all I am saying, and thus need not preclude an intent for the best, even for the person being punished.

Well, touché! But not if Adam chose to eat from the tree of life first, I think that would have changed his nature in a way that Christians expect to be eventually, unable to sin.

Unless he bears it, and had this plan for a good purpose. If there was nothing to overcome, what would there be to reward?

It might be, yes.

Exodus 22:18 Do not allow a sorceress to live.

That is possible, too.

I hope that they will be. The process, though, if this is true, I do not know.

You have perhaps not read much of Amorite practices.

But I meant the apparent motion.

Not all thoughts are thoughtful, though.

Yes, that is what I believe.

God's intent is not usually clear, immediately, and there are tests for finding if God is speaking. And no, I wouldn't "hack and butcher children with Joshua," this is another instance of creating a description of the account, and I could give a description, differently.

Leviticus 10:2 So fire came out from the presence of the Lord and consumed them, and they died before the Lord.

But where, again, does it say that swords were commanded to be used? And maybe he bore the pain? And maybe being struck by a large hailstone would usually produce unconsciousness, or even bring about immediate death?

John 12:10-11 So the chief priests made plans to kill Lazarus as well, for on account of him many of the Jews were going over to Jesus and putting their faith in him.

This is my favorite, they see a person raised from the dead, and plan to kill him, as if he couldn't be raised again! What people will do, when they see a miracle...

Regards,
Lee

John A. Broussard

The second statement was "certain actions indicate lack of love, and are therefore evil? "

So, would you say that god's actions in bringing about the Indian Ocean tsunami was an act of love or due to a lack of love?

Thanks for your reply.

badger3k

Never heard of the spies throughout the cold war - when whole families were expatriated for helping spy on their own country? Why would you assume that they would reward her with life but kill every member of her family? That would definitely be bad - hearing of this, would you want to help the Israelite spies, knowing that your wife and children would die no matter what you did?

Lee, you've never been to war, have you? I'd bet you have, at best, a Hollywood conception of what goes on in war. It's not pretty, it's not neat, and throughout history, when a defeated people are killed, they are killed in the easiest way, and generally in the way that allows the conquerors to slake their bloodlust. Just look back in history and see what has happened. Why do you assume that it was any different here? What sources do you have other than your own squeamish imagination?

Yeah, that's why I should have taken my mom off her painkillers when she was dying of cancer. I wonder what benefit she missed from that pain. I guess a child that spilled a pot of boiling water on her head, scalding her entire body with second or third degree burns, surely received great benefit from that experience. How about the mideast children who are missing limbs from bombs. I'm glad you consider that a benefit to them.

The benefit has to outweigh the cost, but you think it always does. In your universe, maybe, but not in the real world. It doesn't work like that.

Of course, you can also take part of scripture and make it seem like it is the most wonderful thing in the world, until you see all the contradictions, errors, failed prophecies, lies, you know, reality. Generally, though, we are in the Biblical Criticism forum. Where else should we be discussing criticism of it?

But you say that the end result, since it is God's, is good. Who cares what our motives are if the result is more good? If I understand you right, then, it is the motive, and not the action that is the problem. So, can I sleep with my neighbors wife if I love her? My motives is good? If we do end up sleeping together, then it must be part of God's Plan, so I am not sinning if my motive is pure? Is that correct?

What if my motive was good but the result was (supposedly) bad, even though that can't happen?

But if God is in complete control except where we have freedom, then either he is not in complete control or we are not free. Which is it? How can he completely control, and be responsible for everything, if he does not control our actions and thoughts? Where do you draw the line between God's Plan and human actions - why are we responsible at all for something we really have no choice over, since God planned it?
2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

and

3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

So, did God plan for that to happen? Why not create men with morals already "built in" so to speak, instead of gaining them through an apple? Pretty sloppy job, if you ask me.
Well, Lee, we are still insisting on evidence of such a motive. Other than your own desires, what evidence do you have to indicate that they were not like other men? One payoff to a quisling does not evidence make, especially from the same source. Even without other sources, since I don't think there are any, where in that book does it even suggest they commited genocide with love in their hearts? Why are they not human beings?

Keep that feeling in mind when you think of the people slain by the Israelites. Who wept for them?

Bull. Show us something that says death is evil. First you argue that eternal life (or "infinite life") on Earth would be a bad thing, but you also consider death to be evil. Which is it? Clarify please. Also, to bring in Genesis 3:27, how can you say that Adam would not die if he did not eat of the tree of life before he was kicked out of the garden? The fact that God said he had to kick them out before Adam & Eve ate of the "tree of life" means that they would have to eat that in the garden if they were to be immortal in the garden. And why would God have problems with them eating of the tree of life? He only said don't eat the fruit of the one tree - not two different trees. Why does it sound like God figured that people who were immortal and could tell good and evil apart would be too much like Himself, and maybe was a bit afraid?

Lee, if it is not vengeful, then it is not vengeance. Period.

Well, back it up. Why do you think that? What makes you think that immortal people back then would be any different than the people today? How would a lifespan of millions of years affected them the next day, when the snake came round? A long lifespan is only as good as the experiences (and the education) within it - I know people in their 30s and 40s (and older) who seem to have wasted their lives and learned nothing. If A&E ate the tree of life first, which I just showed they could have done and not gone against God, then why would that somehow make them immune to knowing good and evil, and therefore being capable of sin?

"Poisoner" - not sorceress (or is it a "woman who uses poisons"?).

I'm going out on a limb here, but can you provide sources and enlighten us, then?

You owe me an irony meter.

What a shame that is not what happened, then. You wouldn't want to lie, would you?

Back it up, again, Lee. Where does it say that the soldiers did NOT use swords, the common weapon of the time. Well, I'll grant that perhaps they used spears as well. And Daggers. Where does it indicate that God bore the pain, we need sources, please, if you are going to add information that is not there. We can provide a lot of archaeological data on the weapons of the time, if needed.

And by the way, the largest hailstone I had been hit with was about two inches in diameter. Didn't knock me out but did leave a large bruise (hit my shoulder). I have not personally seen someone knocked out by hail, but I have seen many bruised and injured, and it was painful for them too. From that, I can only imagine what stoning might feel like.

So much simpler and more humane to have everyone fall asleep and die peacefully, and if I were an ancient man, I'd be more afraid of that than some soldiers. Knowing that there was a supernatural being that could kill me, and seeing proof of that, would be more intimidating than having the neighboring country go in and slaughter people. At least I can fight people, so there is hope. Simple psychology is beyond your god?

BadBadBad

I haven't read all of what has been said lately, but this may be the most ridiculous thing you've said so far. These words are all tied together. They all describe a spiteful malicious even evil intent to get even, to get revenge and to retaliate with brutal punishment. These are the words the authors of the Bible use to describe the evil god concept you worship.

These are the words Lee. Look at them all and show me where spite, maliciousness and evil are left out. God didn't just give these folks anesthesia and inject them with a healthy dose of death. He had them, burned, swallowed up by the Earth, pounded by hail, drowned, and hacked and butchered with swords. He didn't do it to cure some ill, he did it spitefully to get even, to retaliate, and to satisfy his malicious wrath. Show me how vengeance doesn't include vengefulnes, vindictiveness, and spite when all these other words link to maliciousness, and evil. Show me how it's not vengeful to dish out vengeance.

Main Entry: ven•geance
Pronunciation: 'ven-j&n(t)s
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Old French, from vengier to avenge, from Latin vindicare to lay claim to, avenge -- more at VINDICATE
: punishment inflicted in retaliation for an injury or offense : RETRIBUTION
- with a vengeance 1 : with great force or vehemence 2 : to an extreme or excessive degree

Main Entry: venge•ful
Pronunciation: 'venj-f&l
Function: adjective
Etymology: obsolete English venge revenge
: REVENGEFUL: as a : seeking to avenge b : serving to gain vengeance

Main Entry: vin•dic•tive
Pronunciation: vin-'dik-tiv
Function: adjective
Etymology: Latin vindicta revenge, vindication, from vindicare
1 a : disposed to seek revenge : VENGEFUL b : intended for or involving revenge
2 : intended to cause anguish or hurt : SPITEFUL
- vin•dic•tive•ly adverb
- vin•dic•tive•ness noun

Entry Word: vindictive
Function: adjective
Text: likely to seek revenge <be careful not to annoy the vindictive old woman who lives down the street>
Synonyms revengeful, vengeful
Related Words avenging; resentful, uncharitable, unforgiving; catty, cruel, despiteful, hateful, malevolent, malicious, malign, malignant, mean, nasty, sadistic, spiteful, vicious, virulent; grim, implacable, merciless, relentless, unrelenting; baleful, baneful, evil; harsh, hostile, inimical
Near Antonyms charitable, forgiving, merciful, relenting; benevolent, benign, benignant, loving; brotherly, compassionate, good, good-hearted, kind, kindhearted, kindly, sympathetic, warm, warmhearted; altruistic, humane, humanitarian, philanthropic; sweet, tender, tenderhearted; high-minded, magnanimous, noble

Main Entry: spite•ful
Pronunciation: 'spIt-f&l
Function: adjective
: filled with or showing spite : MALICIOUS
- spite•ful•ly /-f&-lE/ adverb
- spite•ful•ness noun

Main Entry: 1wrath
Pronunciation: 'rath, chiefly British 'roth
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Old English wr[AE]ththo, from wrAth wroth -- more at WROTH
1 : strong vengeful anger or indignation
2 : retributory punishment for an offense or a crime : divine chastisement
synonym see ANGER

Main Entry: ma·lev·o·lent
Pronunciation: -l&nt
Function: adjective
Etymology: Latin malevolent-, malevolens, from male badly + volent-, volens, present participle of velle to wish -- more at MAL-, WILL
1 : having, showing, or arising from intense often vicious ill will, spite, or hatred
2 : productive of harm or evil
- ma·lev·o·lent·ly adverb

BadBadBad

You have applied the tests, and you are assuring us God's intent was exactly what you require to pass the test. Here is your sword. Here is the little Amorite boy, get busy.

I didn't create a description of the account. The authors of the Bible did. You don't like my insertion of hacking and butchering? OK, so no hacking. Would you agree then if they didn't hack that they had to stab or slice? Is the story more appealing to you if they took swords and stabbed little children to death?

Here was my challenge from here. I believe we start with you butchering, and now stabbing each of a three year old child's brothers and sisters before you got to him. He pleaded that he would never be an Amorite again just before you killed him. I have this image of taking a wide bronze sword and coming up to the little three year old child and ideally thrusting the sword all the way through the child's body. I can't quite imagine much less describe the look on his face as you approach him and run your sword through him. Ideally, it would be a nice upward thrust through his diaphram and into his heart and lungs for a quick death. Praise the Lord! May God have mercy on his soul Amen!

What about God's vengeance though? Do you really think a quick death would satisfy that burning hot wrath of God? That's something you have never responded to in my hypothetical challenge. How much cruelty and brutality would be required to satisfy God's vengeance?

Is stabbing no good too? Is it more palatable if we change the scene to you struggling to the ground with him and slicing his throat open just like I've personally seen done to goats? I have that image in my mind.

You don't like the butchering word?

Main Entry: 2butcher
Function: transitive verb
Inflected Form(s): butch·ered; butch·er·ing /'buch-ri[ng], 'bu-ch&-/
1 : to slaughter and dress for market <butcher hogs>
2 : to kill in a barbarous manner

Main Entry: 2slaughter
Function: transitive verb
1 : to kill (animals) for food : BUTCHER
2 a : to kill in a bloody or violent manner : SLAY b : to kill in large numbers : MASSACRE
3 : to discredit or demolish completely
- slaugh·ter·er /-t&r-&r/ noun

I'm afraid you're stuck with that one. These people were slaughtered for God with swords. We shouldn't be squeemish with God's word. There are no other appropriate words for what is described in your cherished book.

Hacking and butchering is, well, not so nice really. Burning to death by fire, well my, that's so much more ... civilized and humane. I don't know about you, but I feel so much better about God now. Does it really ease your conscience to worship a God that might burn you alive but certainly under no circumstances would have you slaughtered like a screaming goat with swords?

Have you forgotten? I've pointed it out to you perhaps a dozen times. No problem, I have a Bible handy right here.

Joshua 10:40 So Joshua smote all the country of the hills, and of the south, and of the vale, and of the springs, and all their kings: he left none remaining, but utterly destroyed all that breathed, as the LORD God of Israel commanded.

Then what would be the point of sentencing them to such horrific deaths if there was no pain involved? Spite, vengefullness, vengeance, vindictiveness, malice, wrath and evil explain the pain and suffering very well. The Bible just left out malice and evil, but the other words were excellent choices to describe the actions of God, Joshua, and Moses.

And maybe pigs really do fly?

andrewcriddle

IF you are worried that when the little boy grows up he will pursue blood feud against you for what you did to his people, I don't see how anything he says, or any promise he makes under extreme duress can make any difference.

Andrew Criddle