Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Cege · 12-16-2010, 08:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chili

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cege

Was a wise woman among the magi who followed Bethlehem's star?
A revered international authority on the Gospel of Matthew, the Rev. Benedict Thomas Viviano (right), who spent much of this year teaching New Testament at Blackfriars Hall, Oxford University, offers this original theory.

The professor, Dominican friar and priest used his command of Old Testament references and his ease with gender in ancient Hebrew words to suggest that one or more women may have been among the magi who visited the infant Jesus in the brief story told in Matthew's Gospel, Chapter 2.

Viviano's full theory about the possibility of women among the magi will be published next year in "Studies in Matthew" by Leuven University Press, edited by another august biblical scholar Joseph Verheyden.

(Afterall, they did stop and ask for directions

)

. . . but magi are not mystics and women are not gnostics nor can woman be gnostic.

Gnost so fast, there! Women can be mystical (just ask a man) even if they aren't all so magical.

Magi women sounds fine with me.

Chili · 12-16-2010, 09:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cege

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chili

. . . but magi are not mystics and women are not gnostics nor can woman be gnostic.

Gnost so fast, there! Women can be mystical (just ask a man) even if they aren't all so magical.

Magi women sounds fine with me.

Yes women make good mystics but mystics are not gnostic and the Magi were gnostic

spamandham · 12-16-2010, 09:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chili

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cege

Gnost so fast, there! Women can be mystical (just ask a man) even if they aren't all so magical.

Magi women sounds fine with me.

Yes women make good mystics but mystics are not gnostic and the Magi were gnostic

Huh? The Magi are mythical, obviously.

GakuseiDon · 12-17-2010, 12:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cege

Viviano's full theory about the possibility of women among the magi will be published next year in "Studies in Matthew" by Leuven University Press, edited by another august biblical scholar Joseph Verheyden.

(Afterall, they did stop and ask for directions

)

:lol: That reminds me of this:

Chili · 12-17-2010, 05:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spamandham

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chili

Yes women make good mystics but mystics are not gnostic and the Magi were gnostic

Huh? The Magi are mythical, obviously.

Of course they are and that means it has to be without error and cannot be female.

Cege · 12-19-2010, 06:58 PM

Topic in Sunday School Today: the Magi. You'll be pleased to know that the Southern Baptist position is that the number of Magi is unknown, their origin is unknown, and the basis of their belief that a star in the east predicted a king's birth is unknown.

Chili · 12-20-2010, 11:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cege

Topic in Sunday School Today: the Magi. You'll be pleased to know that the Southern Baptist position is that the number of Magi is unknown, their origin is unknown, and the basis of their belief that a star in the east predicted a king's birth is unknown.

That follows as they were not home when the Magi came and so it is that purgatorians they will remain for the rest of their life and die nonetheless.

Dave31 · 12-20-2010, 01:14 PM

Quote:

GakuseiDon "Actually, Acharya is wrong to talk about the magi "tracking" the star to Jerusalem. And I have no idea where she gets that they "are depicted as nevertheless illogically becoming hopelessly lost". "Illogically"? "Hopelessly lost"?

In fact, the story doesn't have the magi following the star, at least not until the end as they were approaching Bethlehem. The magi see the star in the east, which indicated to them that a King of the Jews had been born. So they (logically!) go to Jerusalem to look for the child. At Jerusalem, Herod sends the magi on to Bethlehem, and it is only as they approach Bethlehem that the star indicates where Jesus could be found. "

Well, everybody here knows that you have nothing but contempt for Acharya S and would never acknowledge that she may be right about anything anyway. I think you jumped the gun on this issue. Here's what Acharya actually said:

Quote:

"In the gospel story, Jesus's birth is signaled by a bright star and a visit from wise men or magi, as they are termed in the New Testament, representing Three Wise Men and the Star Persian astrologers following the star. Despite the stellar brilliance and obviousness, this tracking was apparently not a simple act, since these "wise men" are depicted as nevertheless illogically becoming hopelessly lost and must ask Christ's enemy King Herod for assistance. (Mt 2:1-10) Concerning this pericope, Dr. James Orr remarks, "It may...be inferred from Mt 2 10 that in some way or other the wise men had for a time lost sight of the star."1

* fn 1. Orr, James, ed. The International Standard Bible Encyclopaedia, V. Chicago: Howard Severance Co., 1915, p. 2848.

So you, "have no idea where she gets that they "are depicted as nevertheless illogically becoming hopelessly lost"?

Well, it seems to come from Matthew 2:1-10. In Matthew 2:1 the Magi admit that they "saw his star when it rose and have come to worship him." They also have to ask where he is.

Matthew 2:1 (NIV) "After Jesus was born in Bethlehem in Judea, during the time of King Herod, Magi from the east came to Jerusalem 2 and asked, “Where is the one who has been born king of the Jews? We saw his star when it rose and have come to worship him.”

In Matthew 2:9-10 they say "After they had heard the king, they went on their way, and the star they had seen when it rose went ahead of them until it stopped over the place where the child was. 10 When they saw the star, they were overjoyed."

So, it appears that she is not wrong at all in her assessment.

The Star in the East and Three Kings

Dave31 · 12-20-2010, 01:15 PM

Quote:

John Kesler "I would be wary of citing D.M. Murdock/Acharya S--who in turn quotes from Barbara G. Walker, a journalist and knitter!"

Nice ad hom and credentialism there, John. I'd be more wary of citing meditation guru John Kesler, honestly. Have you even actually read a book of Acharya's or are you just repeating the nonsense you've heard from others who also haven't actually read her work just so you can attack it then, promote your own interpretations?

GakuseiDon · 12-20-2010, 06:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave31

Quote:

GakuseiDon "Actually, Acharya is wrong to talk about the magi "tracking" the star to Jerusalem. And I have no idea where she gets that they "are depicted as nevertheless illogically becoming hopelessly lost". "Illogically"? "Hopelessly lost"?

In fact, the story doesn't have the magi following the star, at least not until the end as they were approaching Bethlehem. The magi see the star in the east, which indicated to them that a King of the Jews had been born. So they (logically!) go to Jerusalem to look for the child. At Jerusalem, Herod sends the magi on to Bethlehem, and it is only as they approach Bethlehem that the star indicates where Jesus could be found. "

Well, everybody here knows that you have nothing but contempt for Acharya S and would never acknowledge that she may be right about anything anyway. I think you jumped the gun on this issue. Here's what Acharya actually said:

Quote:

"In the gospel story, Jesus's birth is signaled by a bright star and a visit from wise men or magi, as they are termed in the New Testament, representing Three Wise Men and the Star Persian astrologers following the star. Despite the stellar brilliance and obviousness, this tracking was apparently not a simple act, since these "wise men" are depicted as nevertheless illogically becoming hopelessly lost and must ask Christ's enemy King Herod for assistance. (Mt 2:1-10) Concerning this pericope, Dr. James Orr remarks, "It may...be inferred from Mt 2 10 that in some way or other the wise men had for a time lost sight of the star."1

* fn 1. Orr, James, ed. The International Standard Bible Encyclopaedia, V. Chicago: Howard Severance Co., 1915, p. 2848.

So you, "have no idea where she gets that they "are depicted as nevertheless illogically becoming hopelessly lost"?

That's correct. What is "illogical" about them going to Jerusalem, and were they "hopelessly lost"? What does her remark about the tracking (of the star, I presume) have to do with "stellar brilliance and obviousness"? In the gospel story, were they actually tracking the star to go to Jerusalem? What was being tracked?

Mark my words, Dave. One day you will start questioning Acharya for yourself, and you will become her biggest nightmare; or I'll be a Pygmy's uncle.

Directly addressing questions put to you would be a start.

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12-19-2010, 06:58 PM	#36
Cege Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: 36078 Posts: 849	Topic in Sunday School Today: the Magi. You'll be pleased to know that the Southern Baptist position is that the number of Magi is unknown, their origin is unknown, and the basis of their belief that a star in the east predicted a king's birth is unknown.

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