Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Mathetes · 12-15-2004, 05:13 PM

Hi, learned ones.
I have recently been reading some books in the Septuagint and comparing them with current text in English Bibles. Well, it has surprised me quite a bit the sheer number of discrepancies that exist. Whole groups of verses tell totally different things. That got me thinking a bit...
As I understand, our sources for the Hebrew texts are:
- Septuagint
- Massoretic text
- Dead Sea Scrolls
Where can I read about who decides which text a particular Bible translation uses, and why? I would also like to know what is thought to be closer to the originals (I know, it may be difficult to specify what "original" means), and why. Is the Septuagint supposed to be more corrupted than others? Why?
I can reasonably read Greek (Attic and Koine), but not Hebrew.
Thanks!
(One last question: what is the text that Jerome used for the Vulgate?)

Chris Weimer · 12-16-2004, 11:09 AM

The Septuagint is supposed to be more corrupted than others because it doesn't compare exactly with the Masoretic texts. But the Masoretic text is just one of the many different texts that were out there. You also have the one the Septuagint was based on, more preserved in the Dead Sea Scrolls than the texts that agree with the Masoretic texts also found there, and you have the Samaritan bible as well.

Mathetes · 12-16-2004, 03:16 PM

Thanks, CWeb. I would like to learn about why the Masoretic text is considered closer to the "original" text. I have heard that it was not agreed until Medieval times. An argument could be made that it is easier to preserve a text written in Greek, that half the civilized world spoke (and had been adopted by Eastern Churches), than a text in Hebrew, that had been a dead language for centuries.

Of course I don't know what I am talking about, so that's why I requested some references of where I can read more.

The Evil One · 12-16-2004, 03:36 PM

Hebrew had been dead as a mother tongue for centuries, but plenty of educated Jews spoke it as a second language. There was never a time when no one spoke Hebrew.

Chris Weimer · 12-16-2004, 04:54 PM

Hate to point away from here, but I discussed this here

Haran · 12-19-2004, 01:26 PM

Some well-known and respected basic sources that may be of interest:

Text of the Old Testament, Wurthwein

Textual Criticism: Recovering the Text of the Hebrew Bible, Kyle McCarter

Textual Criticism of the Hebrew Bible]Textual Criticism of the Hebrew Bible, Tov

Invitation to the Septuagint, Jobes

Haran · 12-19-2004, 05:05 PM

Of course, if you'd rather not purchase anything from the above links because they've been changed from what I originally posted to something that financially supports the SecWeb, then you may also find them in some local bookstores or check out the following links if they don't also change...

Text of the Old Testament, Wurthwein

Textual Criticism of the Hebrew Bible]Textual Criticism of the Hebrew Bible, Tov

Invitation to the Septuagint, Jobes

Toto · 12-19-2004, 05:30 PM

Internet Infidels is an Amazon associate, and the proceeds support this forum. It is standard policy to edit all Amazon links to benefit this site, which you use. But if you want to be an anti-social freeloader, we don't stop you. (Did Jesus ever say Blessed are the Freeloaders? I don't recall that verse.)

Haran · 12-19-2004, 05:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Internet Infidels is an Amazon associate, and the proceeds support this forum. It is standard policy to edit all Amazon links to benefit this site, which you use. But if you want to be an anti-social freeloader, we don't stop you. (Did Jesus ever say Blessed are the Freeloaders? I don't recall that verse.)

I provide my own informational website for free (which I would suspect you have used at least once). It is a shame that you feel you must mooch off of others to support your own ideology.

Toto · 12-19-2004, 06:04 PM

Seriously, I doubt that your website (which has banner ads for free webhosting, does it not?) gets the number of hits this forum gets, or that it has required the number of server upgrades that support this forum.

You can put your website in your profile if you want.

12-15-2004, 05:13 PM	#1
Mathetes Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Spaniard living in Silicon Valley Posts: 539	Sources of the text for the Hebrew Scripture? Hi, learned ones. I have recently been reading some books in the Septuagint and comparing them with current text in English Bibles. Well, it has surprised me quite a bit the sheer number of discrepancies that exist. Whole groups of verses tell totally different things. That got me thinking a bit... As I understand, our sources for the Hebrew texts are: - Septuagint - Massoretic text - Dead Sea Scrolls Where can I read about who decides which text a particular Bible translation uses, and why? I would also like to know what is thought to be closer to the originals (I know, it may be difficult to specify what "original" means), and why. Is the Septuagint supposed to be more corrupted than others? Why? I can reasonably read Greek (Attic and Koine), but not Hebrew. Thanks! (One last question: what is the text that Jerome used for the Vulgate?)

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12-16-2004, 11:09 AM	#2
Chris Weimer Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: none Posts: 9,879	The Septuagint is supposed to be more corrupted than others because it doesn't compare exactly with the Masoretic texts. But the Masoretic text is just one of the many different texts that were out there. You also have the one the Septuagint was based on, more preserved in the Dead Sea Scrolls than the texts that agree with the Masoretic texts also found there, and you have the Samaritan bible as well.

12-16-2004, 03:16 PM	#3
Mathetes Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Spaniard living in Silicon Valley Posts: 539	Thanks, CWeb. I would like to learn about why the Masoretic text is considered closer to the "original" text. I have heard that it was not agreed until Medieval times. An argument could be made that it is easier to preserve a text written in Greek, that half the civilized world spoke (and had been adopted by Eastern Churches), than a text in Hebrew, that had been a dead language for centuries. Of course I don't know what I am talking about, so that's why I requested some references of where I can read more.

12-16-2004, 03:36 PM	#4
The Evil One Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: England Posts: 2,561	Hebrew had been dead as a mother tongue for centuries, but plenty of educated Jews spoke it as a second language. There was never a time when no one spoke Hebrew.

12-16-2004, 04:54 PM	#5
Chris Weimer Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: none Posts: 9,879	Hate to point away from here, but I discussed this here

12-19-2004, 01:26 PM	#6
Haran Banned Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Dallas, Tx Posts: 1,490	Some well-known and respected basic sources that may be of interest: Text of the Old Testament, Wurthwein Textual Criticism: Recovering the Text of the Hebrew Bible, Kyle McCarter Textual Criticism of the Hebrew Bible]Textual Criticism of the Hebrew Bible, Tov Invitation to the Septuagint, Jobes

12-19-2004, 05:05 PM	#7
Haran Banned Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Dallas, Tx Posts: 1,490	Of course, if you'd rather not purchase anything from the above links because they've been changed from what I originally posted to something that financially supports the SecWeb, then you may also find them in some local bookstores or check out the following links if they don't also change... Text of the Old Testament, Wurthwein Textual Criticism of the Hebrew Bible]Textual Criticism of the Hebrew Bible, Tov Invitation to the Septuagint, Jobes

12-19-2004, 05:30 PM	#8
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	Internet Infidels is an Amazon associate, and the proceeds support this forum. It is standard policy to edit all Amazon links to benefit this site, which you use. But if you want to be an anti-social freeloader, we don't stop you. (Did Jesus ever say Blessed are the Freeloaders? I don't recall that verse.)

12-19-2004, 06:04 PM	#10
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	Seriously, I doubt that your website (which has banner ads for free webhosting, does it not?) gets the number of hits this forum gets, or that it has required the number of server upgrades that support this forum. You can put your website in your profile if you want.

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