Jack the Bodiless

Lee:

Where do you get the notion that Abraham was familiar with the contents of New Testament books not yet written?

Wallener

No. Abraham's story teaches G-d does not want that, so if I'm hearing such a command, I know it isn't coming from G-d.

Anat

God did command Jews to kill all of the nations of canaan as well as Amalek. God was very disappointed when Saul did not kill Agag and when Ahab did not kill the king of Aram. So I can't see how the 'God would never say that' line can work.

Either one follows all of God's commands, however random or attrocious (see Leibowitz) or one uses one's own criteria for determining the desirable line of action, and then God's word doesn't bear any more weight than that of, say, any human.

Wallener

The problem is deciding what is a voice from G-d and what is a sign the lithium prescription ran out (to use an extreme example). Ultimately it always comes down to using "one's own criteria" whichever of Leibowitz's paths you take. IMO that problem is explicitly embedded in Torah: "Do not murder - Here are some hints, but you have figure out the definition of murder for yourselves."

At least, that's where I am these days...

Anat

Historically the solution was to decide God's voice doesn't count from the moment he gave the Law at Sinai - it is now in the hands of the sages to interpret (there is a bit of a problem wrt prophecy, but never mind). That was Gamaliel (the second)'s reasoning when he ignored a Heavely Voice that sided with Eliezer Horkanos (as opposed to Gamaliel and the other sages) on ritual purity of the Akhnai oven.

John A. Broussard

Thanks.

I'll add that to my collection of explanations for what happened. Theists aren't going to like it, however, as you know. If they accept it, it means there's going to be the problem of sorting out when god was passing orders, and when they were coming from somewhere (someone) else.

Seems to me there's a passage in the bible where Satan orders a census, while another passage says it was god who gave out the command. I'm not going to bother to look it up unless someone insists I'm wrong.

If I'm right, then there does seem to already be confusion in the scriptures about who, exactly, is running the show.

BadBadBad

Hmmm, I wonder if it was really that way. I'm not sure about the author of Numbers. It just doesn't seem very God like. It seems like something else. I just can't guess who it could be. Could it be ... SATAN?

Why don't we ask someone who has experienced this kind of thing first hand. Meet Gitera Rwamuhuzi. He is a real baby killer, and he can tell you all about the spiritual aspects of butchering babies. Compare and contrast his account as to the Bible. Ask yourselves which account is more spiritually reasonable.

From here

"In 1994 in the village of Nyarubuye, Rwanda, the Hutu majority went on a killing spree in the local church, slaughtering neighbours and friends.
Gitera Rwamuhuzi is one of those who took part in the genocide. This is his story.

<snip>

On the morning of 15 April 1994, each one of us woke up knowing what to do and where to go because we had made a plan the previous night. In the morning we woke up and started walking towards the church.

After selecting the people who could use guns and grenades, they armed them and said we should surround the church.

They said one group would go south and another group would go to the north. There were so many of us we were treading on each others' heels.

People who had grenades detonated them. The Tutsis started screaming for help.

As they were screaming, those who had guns started to shoot inside.

They screamed saying that we are dying, help us, but the soldiers continued shooting.

I entered and when I met a man I hit him with a club and he died.

You would say why not two, three or four but I couldn't kill two or three because those that entered outnumbered those inside.

Some people did not even find someone to kill because there were more killers than victims.

When we moved in, it was as if we were competing over the killing. We entered and each one of us began killing their own.

Each person who we cut looked like they had been hit by the grenades. They looked traumatised. They looked like their hearts had been taken away.

No one was asking for forgiveness. They looked like they had been killed already.

Those you cut were just not saying anything. They were scared that no one said anything. They must have been traumatized.

Apart from breathing you could see that they had no life in them. They looked like their hearts had been taken away.

These people were my neighbours - the picture of their deaths may never leave me

I saw people whose hands had been amputated, those with no legs, and others with no heads. I saw everything.

Especially seeing people rolling around and screaming in agony, with no arms, no legs. People died in very bad conditions.

It was as if we were taken over by Satan. We were taken over by Satan. When Satan is using you, you lose your mind. We were not ourselves. Beginning with me, I don't think I was normal.

You wouldn't be normal if you start butchering people for no reason. We had been attacked by the devil.

Even when I dream my body changes in a way I cannot explain. These people were my neighbours. The picture of their deaths may never leave me. Everything else I can get out of my head but that picture never leaves. "


Take a look at this genocide and compare that to Joshua's genocide in Numbers. See here if you dare Notice the picture of the slaughtered on God's altar in the third picture down on the left. How is this scene of genocide different than Joshua's genocide? If killers in this genocide felt they were possessed by the devil, I wonder how this differed from those involved in Joshua's genocide?

John A. Broussard

Horrifying as your example is, there's a profound difference between your narrator's explanation for why he did what he did and Joshua's explanation for a very similar massacre.

In one case the perpetrator has finally decided that Satan was behind his actions. In Joshua's case, he's convinced that an omni-benevolent god was in charge--and many current bible inerrantists believe the same thing.

Anyhow--many thanks for your contribution to this thread--shocking as it is.

BadBadBad

And the difference would be what, and how could you tell?

John A. Broussard

The difference is that someone who is convinced that the order to kill comes directly from god will of course continue to kill.

The one who isn't so sure might at least hesitate.

I do, however, agree that there isn't much difference.

My hope is that while there are people who believe in a divine being who daily slaughters countless numbers of people through famines, earthquakes, floods etc., that they will at least stop believing that commands to emulate such actions are divinely inspired.