Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Loomis · 01-14-2010, 12:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roland

I'm assuming that the oldest religions for which we have any records are the ones found in Egypt and Sumer. Does anybody know when the name Yahweh first enters the historical record? I'm assuming somewhere in the early 1st millenium but I can't find any evidence for that. And is that reference found in Hebrew literature or perhaps in earlier Canaanite literature?

Thanks

Yahweh does not appear to be a member of the Ugarit/Canaanite pantheon (even though sometimes he looks and acts just like Ba’al).

Yahweh was either a second god from a second source that was later combined with Canaanite literature, or else it was a name that was newly invented - after the Ugarit texts were written.

Roland · 01-14-2010, 03:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loomis

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roland

If "all mankind" is being divided and boundaries between them set, then what does doing it "according to the number of the sons of Israel" mean?

Nothing.

It never said 'sons of Israel' - until about 900-1000 C.E.

Get over it.

:vomit:

I don't disagree with you. I guess my question was rhetorical, aimed at those who would accept the "revised" version to keep their monotheistic inclinations intact.

Anat · 01-14-2010, 03:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loomis

No. It’s talking about the seventy nations listed in Genesis 10.

And the one who substituted 'sons of Israel' was referring to the number of sons, grandsons listed as going to Egypt with Jacob in Genesis 46.

Quote:

All the souls belonging to Jacob that came into Egypt, that came out of his loins, besides Jacob's sons' wives, all the souls were threescore and six. And the sons of Joseph, who were born to him in Egypt, were two souls; all the souls of the house of Jacob, that came into Egypt, were threescore and ten.

semiopen · 01-14-2010, 03:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anat

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loomis

No. It’s talking about the seventy nations listed in Genesis 10.

And the one who substituted 'sons of Israel' was referring to the number of sons, grandsons listed as going to Egypt with Jacob in Genesis 46.

Quote:

All the souls belonging to Jacob that came into Egypt, that came out of his loins, besides Jacob's sons' wives, all the souls were threescore and six. And the sons of Joseph, who were born to him in Egypt, were two souls; all the souls of the house of Jacob, that came into Egypt, were threescore and ten.

The 70 people is puzzling because the numbers given don't add up to 70. Moreover the number includes 2, 3, or possibly even 4 women (depending on whether Yocheved - mother of Moses - was born during the trip - another woman is Asenath wife of Joseph, who might be counted with the 70 but this, so far as I know, has escaped the attention of the sages). The problem is the brothers had wives and they are not counted so the 70 is either slightly less than 70 (with no women included) or quite a bit more than 70 with the women.

Back Again · 01-14-2010, 03:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loomis

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roland

Is it talking about the 12 tribes of Israel?

No. It’s talking about the seventy nations listed in Genesis 10.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q...&aq=f&oq=&aqi=

In Canaanite mythology El fathered seventy sons with the goddess Asherah.

Presumably the 70 sons of El (from Canaanite mythology) correspond to the 70 nations in Genesis 10.

Your point is that the father god (El) of some pantheon is merged with a tribal patron god (Yahweh) and the sons of El become (human) racial patriarchs? What's that spell? Monotheism. The beauty of this system is that it allows the easy use of any existing literature with minimal redaction

Back Again · 01-14-2010, 04:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by semiopen

The 70 people is puzzling because the numbers given don't add up to 70. Moreover the number includes 2, 3, or possibly even 4 women (depending on whether Yocheved - mother of Moses - was born during the trip - another woman is Asenath wife of Joseph, who might be counted with the 70 but this, so far as I know, has escaped the attention of the sages). The problem is the brothers had wives and they are not counted so the 70 is either slightly less than 70 (with no women included) or quite a bit more than 70 with the women.

70 is one of the good numbers. Anything close rounds to 70.

rob117 · 01-15-2010, 12:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loomis

Imho I think verse 7 is a very revealing indicator of what the author was thinking.

Quote:

7 Remember the days of old;
consider the generations long past.
Ask your father and he will tell you,
your elders, and they will explain to you.

The author asks the reader to remember the days of old – to remember an older tradition.

Right?

Well (if you agree), then what tradition is the author talking about?

Fathom to guess? :constern01:

Are you suggesting that while the poem as a whole does identify Yahweh as El, verses 8-9 are perhaps a direct quotation from an older poem? Or that verses 8-9 represent a sort of "floating stanza" that could be inserted as needed into larger poetic units (we have evidence for this practice in several instances throughout biblical poetry). This would make sense and would explain the juxtaposition of the "Yahweh as creator god" theology of the poem with the apparent "Yahweh as son of the creator god" theology of these two verses.

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