Dylan

http://www.aboutbibleprophecy.com/deuteronomy_28_64.htm

This is one of the few Bible Prophecies I find to be...uh "true" / the only explanation for it is "coincidence" -- for lack of a better word (and grammar).

Thoughts on it?

Psalm 13:5

There are a large number of fulfilled Biblical prophecies. Many of them are quite amazing, and the fact is... the odds of even a portion of the specific prophecies being fulfilled by chance is pretty near impossible, so when you take into consideration all of them so far, the odds are 1 in some number so astronomical, it is statistically impossible.

I'll come back a little later and post a few fulfilled prophecies.

Psalm 13:5

Here are a few for now.


Israel

1. The Jews would have a worldwide impact.

Genesis 12:2-3, Isaiah 27:6, Isaiah 49:6

No group of people in the world has ever had this kind of impact on the world. In fact, write down a list of the most influential people in theology, governance, philosophy, music, science, literature and commerce. And then check to see which group of people appears on all lists. And yet the Jews are small in number, comprising less than 1 percent of the world's population.


2. Jerusalem would be destroyed.

Micah 3:11-12,Deuteronomy 28:49-52, Leviticus 26:31-32

In Micah 3:11-12, the prophet Micah said 2700 years ago that Jerusalem would be destroyed and "plowed like a field." Since the time of Micah, the Babylonians destroyed Jerusalem, in 586 BC. And then the Romans destroyed the city, twice, in 70 AD and in 135 AD.

According to a text in the Gemara - an ancient Jewish writing - the Romans ran a plow over Zion on the 9th day of the Jewish month of Ab. The Gemara said that Turnus Rufus, a Roman officer, plowed the area of the Temple. This prophecy was fulfilled in literal detail. Incidentally, there was a Roman coin minted during the era of Hadrian - the Roman who destroyed Jerusalem in 135 AD - that shows an image of a man riding a plow over the site of Jerusalem. The coin was intended to commemorate the founding of the pagan Roman city called Aelia Capitolina on the site of Jerusalem. The Romans sometimes minted coins showing the plowing motif as a symbol of the establishment of a new Roman city.


3. The Jews would be exiled.

Deuteronomy 4:25-30, Deuteronomy 28:36-37, Deuteronomy 28:65-67

The Jews were exiled from the northern part of their homeland by the Assyrians about 2700 years ago, and from the southern part of their homeland by the Babylonians about 2600 years ago. Some returned after those exiles. But the people again were exiled, twice, by the Romans, about 1900 years ago. In fact, the Romans temporarily banned the Jews from living in their homeland. Even today, the majority of Jews live outside of their ancient homeland.


4. Israel would become a wasteland.

Deuteronomy 29:23, Leviticus 26:31-32, Isaiah 51:3

In Deuteronomy 29:23, the Bible said Israel would become a wasteland. This prophecy certainly was fulfilled. The land has been described many times as having been a wasteland. American writer Mark Twain wrote this, in 1867, about the land of Israel, which at the time was called Palestine: "Palestine sits in sackcloth and ashes… the spell of a curse that has withered its fields and fettered its energies… Palestine is desolate and unlovely… It is a hopeless, dreary, heartbroken land." - from Mark Twain's Innocents Abroad. The Bible also said that the land again would become productive. This transformation has been taking place during the past century as many Jews have been working to restore Israel.


5. The Jews would be scattered worldwide.

Deuteronomy 4:27-30, Genesis 28:13-15, Hosea 9:17

Imagine that "prophets" from every country of the world had predicted in ancient times that their people would be forced out of their homeland and forcibly scattered worldwide. How many of those countries would have prophets who would have been proven correct? None, except for Israel. Only one group of people, in the history of this world, has been forcibly scattered to every inhabited continent of this world - the Jews.

When the Assyrians, Babylonians and Romans ousted the Jews from their homeland, the Jews fled to countries near the Mediterranean Sea in north Africa, west Asia and southern Europe. When the Europeans tormented the Jews, they fled to the east into Arabic countries in Asia. And when they were tormented there, they fled to west to Europe. When the Spaniards oppressed the Jews in the late 1400s, many Jews boarded ships that traveled to South America. And when the Jews were marked for annihilation by the Nazis in Europe, they fled to Australia, South Africa, North America and South America. There have been Jewish settlements as far east of Israel as China, as far west as California, as far south as South America, South Africa and Australia, and as far north as Russia, Scandinavia and Canada. Persecution forced the Jews out of their homeland. And persecution forced the Jews out of their adopted countries and into other countries throughout the world, just as the Bible prophets had claimed more than 2000 years ago.


6. The Jews would be persecuted worldwide.

Deuteronomy 31:16-17, Zechariah 8:13, Deuteronomy 28:65-67

They were scattered worldwide and persecuted worldwide, just as the ancient Jewish prophets had said in the Bible.


7. The Jews, and their identity as a group, would be preserved.

Isaiah 66:22, Jeremiah 30:11, Jeremiah 31:35-36, Jeremiah 46:28, Leviticus 26:3-8, Leviticus 26:44

What other group of people has survived 19 centuries of worldwide dispersion and managed to preserve their ancient culture, their ancient religion and their ancient language? None. What other group of people has survived 19 centuries of worldwide dispersion and was able to reclaim independence for their ancient homeland? None. Only the Jews. What other group of people had prophets who said that their people would be exiled and scattered worldwide but that their identity would be preserved and that they would one day return to their ancient homeland? None. Only the Jews.


8. The Jews would return to their ancient homeland.

Amos 9:14-15, Deuteronomy 30:3-5, Ezekiel 34:13, Ezekiel 36:24, Jeremiah 23:3-6, Zechariah 8:7-8

During the late 1800s, after about 17 centuries of exile, the Jews began to return to their ancient homeland, which at that time was called Palestine and was ruled over by the Ottoman Empire. A few million more returned shortly before and after the World War II Holocaust, in which the Nazis sought to destroy all Jews as part of their so-called "Final Solution." When the Jews reclaimed sovereignty for Israel in 1948, it was the first time in about 2000 years that the Jews had sovereignty over any part of their homeland. It was also the first time in about 2900 years that Israel was both a united and sovereign country. Has any other country endured such lengthy intervals of independence? Has any other country endured such intervals with the additional challenge of having its residents scattered throughout the world?


9. Enemies of the Jews would also reside in their homeland.

Leviticus 26:31-32

In Leviticus 26:31-32, the Bible said that Israel would become a wasteland and that it would be inhabited by enemies of the Jews. Both parts of this prophecy have been clearly documented throughout history. Many Jews were forced out of their homeland by the Assyrians, Babylonians and Romans. Each time, other people were able to move into the land. These people often had conflicts with the Jews when the Jews returned to their homeland. When the Jews began returning during the 1800s and 1900s, they had skirmishes with the peoples living there, including the Palestinians, who continue to live in parts of Israel. Perhaps every country in the world has "enemies" residing within. But how many of those countries have enemies that seek the destruction of the host nation? And how many of those countries had prophets who predicted it? Historically, the Jews and the Moslems have had good relations. But today, they are often at odds over who should have sovereignty over parts of the Holy Land.


10. The Jews would have Israel again as their own country, again.

Ezekiel 11:17, Ezekiel 37:21-22, Isaiah 66:7-8, Jeremiah 16:14-15

In Isaiah 66:7-8, the prophet foreshadowed the re-birth of Israel. Isaiah describes a woman giving birth before going into labor, and he speaks of a country being born in one day. This accurately describes what happened on May 14, 1948 - when the Jews declared independence for Israel as a united and sovereign nation for the first time in 2900 years.

During that same day, the United States issued a statement recognizing Israel's sovereignty. And, only hours beforehand, a United Nations mandate expired, ending British control of the land. During a 24-hour span of time, foreign control of the land of Israel had formally ceased, and Israel had declared its independence, and its independence was acknowledged by other nations. Modern Israel literally was born in a single day.

But there's more: Isaiah said the birth would take place before there would be labor pains. And that too is precisely what happened. A movement called Zionism began in the 1800s to encourage Jews worldwide to move to Israel, which at that time was called Palestine. Within hours of the peaceful declaration of independence in 1948, Israel was attacked by the surrounding countries of Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, Iraq and Saudi Arabia. Israel prevailed in that war and expanded the size of the country by 50 percent.

So, when you read Isaiah 66:7-8, keep in mind that Israel became a country in a single day, and that it was born of a movement called Zionism, and that the birth was peaceful but the aftermath was painful.


There are lots more prophecies conceringing Israel. I had posted a list with more of them, on another site I used to post at... but I can't find that thread now. I'll post more later though.

Amlodhi

Sure, I definitely see the coincidence. I see the coincidence that the book of Deuteronomy wasn't "found" until the time of Josiah who reigned just after the Assyrian invasion and deportation of the Northern kingdom of Israel. I see the coincidence that the passages in context with Deut. 28:64 would perfectly reflect Judea's perspective of this event.

I see the coincidence that all of the destruction/deportation passages cited by the poster "Psalm 13:5" were written by people involved in, and at (or just after) the time of, either this destruction and deportation of Israel by the Assyrians, or the subsequent destruction and deportation of Judea by the Babylonians.

IOW, these passages are a written religious retrojection on what were (for them) contemporary or recent events. That is the not so amazing coincidence.


Amlodhi

Jack the Bodiless

The Bible contains many failed prophecies.

If you only count the successes, and ignore all the failures, you'll get a skewed result: like tossing a coin, ignoring all the tails, and then calculating the odds of getting straight heads. The result would be meaningless.

However, none of your "prophecies" look very impressive.
...The Romans? The Greeks?

In particular: Israel never became a "great nation" and its inhabitants never "filled the world", so these failed.
IIRC, the city wasn't actually destroyed by the Romans. But, as mentioned above by Amlodhi, these verses were apparently written after the invasion of Israel and deportation of its citizens.
...Written after the event.
Nope, when the Jews returned to this "wasteland", they found it inhabited by the people known as Palestinians.
...Written after the event. Also, many peoples have been scattered.
...Written after they were persecuted throughout the then-known world.
Romanies? Foreign-born Hindus? etc.
These verses refer to the re-emergence of Israel after the Babylonian captivity. The subsequent re-scattering was not prophesied, causing the failure of Amos 9:15, "I will plant Israel in their own land, never again to be uprooted from the land I have given them".
Not a prediction. Israel probably qualifies as the most-conquered region in the world: all of its neighbors controlled it at various times.
Written after the re-emergence of the kingdom of Israel, as previously noted. This is quite obvious from Ezekiel 37:22, "And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all" - refers to the historical Two Kingdoms.

Dylan

I'll address a few of these. [Edit: I did not see "Jack the Bodiless"'s post]

It makes sense that Jews would want to have and work for a homeland because of these prophecies. I've talked to Jews who have argued for Israel because God promised it to them (and there are many others who would argue in the same way).

Enemies of the people reside in almost any land.

Dylan

I'm going to play devil's advocate (hah) for kicks and giggles (and it will get us closer to the truth, whatever that may be). And I'll also add some things to your arguments & ask some questions.

I'm ignorant about this, but I have heard Israel be described as a former wasteland a few times. Just because people lived there does not mean that it couldn't have been a poor, desolate, wasteland?

Question - how do you know all these texts were written after the fact?

East Asians too.

One could argue that the amount of people who do preserve their identity is far smaller than the amount of people that don't, so there is something special about prophesizing that jews would be of the few groups that would preserve their identity.

This way of thinking could also be used for the prophecy that Jews will have a world-wide impact - although there are a few small groups that have had a worldwide impact, is it something special that someone was able to "prophesize" one of them? as well as the "jews will be scattered" prophecy - is it something special that the jews are one of the most scattered groups and it was predicted taht they would be very scattered? and for the "jews will be persecuted worldwide" prophecy - is it special that this was predicted and the jews have been one of the most, if not the most, persecuted group in history (even after this prophecy was written)?


What about Isaiah's prophecy? It seems to be a good story to represent the founding of modern-day Israel, as told by the user "Psalm 13:5" (was the founding of Israel really painless?).

Question - In what context is Isaiah's prophecy made? Is he even talking about Israel?



But what about modern day events, such as the holocaust.

Amlodhi

Hello acting devil's advocate,

What about it? The OT writers didn't know anything about the holocaust; so why would anyone think they were writing about it?

Amlodhi

Dylan

World War II was a time that scattered jews and forced them to flee (this also relates to prophesies 3 & 7 that "psalm" posted. Could the prophets be also talking about this?

Forgive me if I'm making some large mistake in my thinking about this, I don't have much knowledge of the Bible & relating books & the history surrounding them.

Edit -- am I misunderstanding these prophecies? Are these prophecies only talking about certain events - certain scatterings, certain punishments etc -- are they not talking in generalities (like 'the jews will be scattered', 'the jews will be punished' etc)?

Joshua Adams

If they are talking only "in generalities", then it could be argued that the prophecy was bound to be fulfilled by something or other. In such a case a fulfillment is no indication of miraculous foreknowledge. It's the same as Nostradamus: make your prophecy vague and something will eventually come along and fulfill it. This reminds me of people claiming that Ezekiel's prophecy against Egypt in Ezekiel 29 could still come true "at the end of the world". Well, how do you argue with that? Obviously Egypt will be destroyed sometime, be it when the sun explodes or before. Anybody and their dog could make such a prophecy, with or without Yahweh's help.

As far as I know, a lot of the books are thought to be post-exilic or written during it, based on a few factors (such as when references to them start appearing, references to historical events/people (not necessarily prophetic in nature; that would be rather circular), etc). If this is correct, it would not be surprising to see them making "prophecies" about the exile. If you can convince someone that you predicted this, then they will take your word for it later on your next prophecy.