judge

I would think it is as literally true as the apocalyptic language used by the HB prophets.

I think just about every image in the book of Revelation is taken directly from the Hebrew Bible.

Look for example at Isaiah 24 (the are better examples but I just about to hop on a plane so may not have time to find them)

Isaiah 24

Added in edit: I was thinking of Isaiah 34

4 All the stars of the heavens will be dissolved
and the sky rolled up like a scroll;
all the starry host will fall
like withered leaves from the vine,
like shriveled figs from the fig tree.

Stars falling from heaven could also possibly be an allusion that the gravity of the judgement was "age ending", along the lines of the falling back to earth of the constellations which occurs in the Precession of the Equinoxes. Over many many years the constellations of the zodiac fall backwards to the earth . As each new constellation takes it place in the sky at vernal equinox, a new age dawns, thus the stars falling to the earth is a momentus earth/age changing event, one of great gravity.

This is quite speculative of course but may be a possibilty.

jules?

Yea, avoid the red mushrooms, and I presume the constant repeating of himself was too much cider.

I wonder what kind of religion would be set up based on my 'visions' and general drug abuse. I remember once having a big thing about ashtrays, ash and dust, the decay and the fact I was sure none were found at sea level.

Clivedurdle

As Dake puts it

Remember Dake is one of the key documents of any proper pentecostal minister!

My point?

A significant group definitely sees this as literal, and sees the fact that Isiah said it first as evidence of it being correct.

I do not think there is much need to presume drugs or illness - I would take this as a typical example of a literary genre, a riff on earlier versions.

A fascinating piece of writing with amazing side effects - including the possible real end of the world caused by members of this group getting control of certain weapon systems!

jules?

Oh great, thanks for cheering me up, and then the 12th Iman will come with aid of the Iranian 'weapons system'

oh shit.

mountainman

Not really cheerio material this either but attendent to realism is that the description may relate to an eyewitness account of a meteor or comet impactor, such as the "Constantine Meteor" crater site. You dont have to adjust the scale of the size too much for an impactor travelling over 30 kms per second to cause a vision of the heavens departing as a scroll, dependent upon where you happen to be at the time. Doesn't the book of Enoch have this type of stuff in it as well? And more to the point, aside from the recent article of the "constantine meteor", is there any record of an impactor (comet/meteor) in the literature and/or the archaeological evidence during the periods (NT and OT) in question?


Best wishes,


Pete Brown

jules?

I did hear of a possible impact crater in Iraq which based on its refill rate would be beteen 3-5k years old. I can't remember the referance and until the situation becomes stable in the country it is unlikely that any investigation will take place. [try nat geo!]

a quick update, the Iraq crater is as young as 6,000 years old although it did not stop speculation that it was the origin of the flood myth. apparently the crater shape that has only been discovered [2001] from sat pictures emerged because saddam drained the marshes. Mind you if you saw a metior strike it is unlikely you would be around to record it later.

aChristian

Yes it is and it has not happen yet. John saw it in a vision, but he saw actual events. There is poetic language in it describing actual events in the future. (I believe 'like a scroll' is a simile.) To be more specific, the part about the sun being black, the moon red, and every mountain and island moving from its place is quite literal. The stars are probably also literal, although it could be talking about meteors or even angels which are represented by stars sometimes. (It could be referring to both the literal stars and angels associated with them at the same time.) However, I think the most sensible way to interpret the scripture is to take it literally unless it is obviously figurative language, such as Jesus saying I am the door or the bread of life, etc. As far as the possibility of the stars crashing to the earth, that is literally possible as well. Those who claim it a physical impossibility claim to know more than I believe they really do know. If God says he can do it, I figure he is pretty capable of pulling it off. They could shrink on the way down for all I know.

Clivedurdle

Is Revelation agreed to be an originally Jewish work that has been xianised? I thought it was far too early to be response to that Meteor Constantine probably saw.

Achristian thank you for proving my point (and probably depressing jules? even more!):devil1:

http://www.geocities.com/b_d_muller/rjohn.html

Clivedurdle

On shrinking stars, Hawkins has a few comments about that - black holes are one result of that, and what comes out of the other end of a black hole? A big bang. Otherwise known as a continually recurring pattern with no need for external influences like gods! And if the total energy of the universe is zero, nothing was or has been created!