Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Faith · 05-19-2004, 02:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by funinspace

Ok, so you just think Ma 5:17-18 is wrong? I see your profile says "layed back Christian". I can understand the Sunday thing when a Christian acknowledges that the Bible is errant. But when they try to claim the cannon is divine and perfect, then it gets rather silly. Or are you going to offer an alternate meaning to the rather clear words of Jesus in Matthew that contradicts Paul's Epistles?

I'm not saying Matthew 5:17-18 is wrong. Jesus said He came not to abolish the Law but to fulfill it. His sin-free life and sacrifice in death do exactly that. He is the only one who has perfectly obeyed God's Law.

Because Jesus lives, His claims about Himself were vindicated, and He IS the fulfillment of God's covenant with mankind. The Resurrection removes the need to follow OT Law to achieve salvation, now faith in the risen Lord is the requirement.

Christians worship on Sunday because of the Resurrection.

funinspace · 05-19-2004, 02:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Faith

I'm not saying Matthew 5:17-18 is wrong. Jesus said He came not to abolish the Law but to fulfill it. His sin-free life and sacrifice in death do exactly that. He is the only one who has perfectly obeyed God's Law.

Because Jesus lives, His claims about Himself were vindicated, and He IS the fulfillment of God's covenant with mankind. The Ressurection removes the need to follow OT Law to achieve salvation, now faith in the risen Lord is the requirement.

Christians worship on Sunday because of the Resurrection.

Yes, the "to fulfill it" has been said before. But what specifically about Ma 5:17-18?

Quote:

Ma 5:18. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

As I said before in this thread...Has heaven and earth passed? Has ALL been fulfilled. That would imply that all NT prophecy for the future and Revelations is bogus. Therefore the law must still stand. Or the Bible is not divine/perfect? These are your God's words. It does not matter what Paul says in his Epistles, unless he superceeds Jesus. I am not trying to say salvation is from observing the Law. But the above verses seem pretty clear that the law still stands until those conditions are met.

DK

Javaman · 05-19-2004, 02:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Faith

Jesus was resurrected on a Sunday.

Minor quibble... Jesus' tomb was empty on Sunday morning. He could have resurrected himself Saturday evening. It'd probably be bad form to bring Matthew 12:40 into this, huh?

Faith · 05-19-2004, 03:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by funinspace

As I said before in this thread...Has heaven and earth passed? Has ALL been fulfilled. That would imply that all NT prophecy for the future and Revelations is bogus. Therefore the law must still stand. Or the Bible is not divine/perfect? These are your God's words. It does not matter what Paul says in his Epistles, unless he superceeds Jesus. I am not trying to say salvation is from observing the Law. But the above verses seem pretty clear that the law still stands until those conditions are met.

The Law regarding the Sabbath, you mean? I don't think Jesus had any intent to change God's Law in relation to what day the Sabbath was observed. That was done by the early church. As I've said, Sunday was picked because it was the day on which the Resurrection occurred.

Starboy · 05-19-2004, 04:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rev. Timothy G. Muse

The statement about the goal being to let people live as the way they want as long as they don't harm you, fails to show TRUE concern for one's fellow man. Christianity cares that our neighbor does not harm himself or others, and is restored to a right relationship with God. The former is self-centered, the latter is love.

Gee, Muse, by god you are right. I must save you from yourself since you are suffering from a delusion. So when I de-convert you and your entire family and friends and tell you how you should live I am sure you will understand that I do it only because I love you soooooo much. Then again you might realize that the only person that you can speak for as to what is right and wrong is you. If you reserve the right to decide what is best for others than so do I.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rev. Timothy G. Muse

As far as crimes, I would raise three issues. First, the standard and ultimate authority is not that of society but of the revealed law of God. Second, as Jesus states in the sermon on the mount, it does not just include outward matters such as rape, but even the thoughts of the heart - anger, lust, malice, etc. Even the Pharisees considered themselves moral, law abiding citizens, but fell short of what God requires. Third, at those points where Christians have committed crimes, their practice has been inconsistent with their faith. (Even so, their inconsistency should not keep others from desiring justification as offered through Christ.)

Are you one of these people that think that the constitution should be replaced with the bible? If so, why should it be your bible? "Revealed law" is only convincing to those that it has been revealed to. Problem is all sorts of people have their own form of "Revealed law". Maybe we should force everyone to live by someone else’s "Revealed law"? Why should it be yours?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rev. Timothy G. Muse

Finally, regarding the eternal security of believers who worship on the Lord's Day, three issues. First, the fact that the "Lord's Day" is referred to in the New Testament, the practice of the early church coming together on Sunday for worship, this day being set apart by the early church fathers, and the theological significance associated with the resurrection ... all provide sufficient and reasonable justification for worshipping on Sunday. Besides, if error does exist here, this is not the unpardonable sin; rather refusal to rightly respond to the Spirit is. I find it interesting coming from non-believers that "If my God exists 'I' will go to hell."

So what you are saying is that tradition trumps the holy book? Good, then I say that the tradition in this country of our constitution should trump the holy book as well. That should not bother you one jot because it gives you the right to live as you wish. Now if you could be all so loving as to extend the same courtesy to others.

Starboy

funinspace · 05-19-2004, 04:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Faith

The Law regarding the Sabbath, you mean? I don't think Jesus had any intent to change God's Law in relation to what day the Sabbath was observed. That was done by the early church. As I've said, Sunday was picked because it was the day on which the Resurrection occurred.

Yes the Sabbath is an excellent example, as given in the 10 Commandments. By Jesus' comments in Ma 5:17-18, neither you nor any Church has a right to change what a Law entails. I don't get what part of "Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled" you do not understand? How has this become invalidated? Because Paul didn't believe it? Because it is mistranslated? Because all has been fulfilled? Because heaven and earth have ended? Again, if one is discussing an errant cannon, then I can see picking what seems best from the conflicting statements between what is quoted of Jesus and Paul.

DK

Faith · 05-19-2004, 04:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by funinspace

Yes the Sabbath is an excellent example, as given in the 10 Commandments.
DK

The Ten Commandments say to remember the Sabbath and keep it holy. "For six days, work is to be done, but the seventh shall be your holy day, a Sabbath of rest to the Lord." (Exodus 35:2)

Does it really matter to God if it's Saturday or Sunday?

ohwilleke · 05-19-2004, 06:35 PM

A Commandment not to fly wouldn't be very worth wasting scarce space on a stone tablet would it?

Rev. Timothy G. Muse · 05-19-2004, 06:50 PM

Your question of Matthew 5:18 is a valid one.
The meaning is this: The law will continue to stand and to apply until the second coming of Christ (the time in which heaven and earth disappear that a far more glorious heaven and earth might be ushered in). Here Jesus is saying that not only is the law not going away, but every detail of it will remain in effect until the time of his coming. The question is: WHO does it apply to?

Paul helps answer this in Galatians 3:23ff - "Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law.

It helps to understand the uses of the law. First, God uses it show sinners their unrighteousness. He does this to lead them to Christ, for when man understands the requirements of the law and recognizes he cannot fulfill the law on his own, he is led to look outside himself for righteousness and fulfillment of the law, which is found through his son. In this usage, the law applies to the flesh. However, once sinners turn to Christ, who has fulfilled the law, then they are under grace and not law. This does not mean the law is then rendered useless, for it still serves as a guide for righteousness to those who are found in Christ. Paul speaks of this in Rom 7:4-6 "So, my brothers, you also died to the law throught the body of Christ that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit to God. For when we were controlled by the sinful nature, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in our bodies, so that we bore fruit for death. But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code."

Starboy · 05-19-2004, 07:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Faith

Does it really matter to God if it's Saturday or Sunday?

Gee, I don't know. Let's ask it.

God, does it really matter if the Sabbath is on Saturday or Sunday? God, if the answer is yes it must be on a Saturday than don't answer.

.......

.......

* an absolutely perfect nothing nada silence *

.......

Well there you have it. All you Christians have screwed up and you're all going to hell.

Starboy

05-19-2004, 06:50 PM	#49
Rev. Timothy G. Muse Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Brandon, Mississippi Posts: 1,892	Why do most Christians voilate the 10 Commandments? (O, ye hypocrites) Your question of Matthew 5:18 is a valid one. The meaning is this: The law will continue to stand and to apply until the second coming of Christ (the time in which heaven and earth disappear that a far more glorious heaven and earth might be ushered in). Here Jesus is saying that not only is the law not going away, but every detail of it will remain in effect until the time of his coming. The question is: WHO does it apply to? Paul helps answer this in Galatians 3:23ff - "Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law. It helps to understand the uses of the law. First, God uses it show sinners their unrighteousness. He does this to lead them to Christ, for when man understands the requirements of the law and recognizes he cannot fulfill the law on his own, he is led to look outside himself for righteousness and fulfillment of the law, which is found through his son. In this usage, the law applies to the flesh. However, once sinners turn to Christ, who has fulfilled the law, then they are under grace and not law. This does not mean the law is then rendered useless, for it still serves as a guide for righteousness to those who are found in Christ. Paul speaks of this in Rom 7:4-6 "So, my brothers, you also died to the law throught the body of Christ that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit to God. For when we were controlled by the sinful nature, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in our bodies, so that we bore fruit for death. But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code."

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05-19-2004, 06:35 PM	#48
ohwilleke Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Denver, Colorado, USA Posts: 4,834	A Commandment not to fly wouldn't be very worth wasting scarce space on a stone tablet would it?

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