naltariel

Wow, this thread is active.

Anyway, what I mean of Original Sin : is Christian's dogma that every human is sinful becase they are the descendant of Adam. That entails their inability to be righteous and thus no one on this earth is righteous in God's eyes (Rome 3: 10- 12), that following Laws doesn't make them righteous (Rome 3: 20), and God's wrath upon all mankind.

Many believe that Jesus wasn't sinful at nature because he didn't come from man's seed. Now, ancient belief is woman doesnt contribute their DNAs on the baby, only the fathers. (therefore masturbation was prohibited because they thought that the wasted seeds have "life" in it). In the modern world, we know that we inherit our father and mother's DNAs, therefore, the argument that Jesus wasn't sinful because he didn't come from man's seeds is ridiculous. Unless Mary didn't contribute her ovum.

er... is anyone confused? I'll be happy if someone can explain this better than I do.

Opera Nut

Thanks fr8trainman for the compliment! That's the nicest thing I've heard so far today, and it's only noon where I live.



I agree completely with the rest of your points.

Also, macaskil points out that original sin is the fault of God for making Adam and Eve capable of disobeying. Since humans have free will, that's a design flaw that God made, instead of making us God-bots. Hmmmm.

Now wouldn't it eliminate many of the wars if the Abrahamic Religions stopped assuming they are morally superior, and then quit killing people of other faiths? Of course they try to convert first, but couldn't they leave each other alone? If one guy's god is superior to another's then why don't they show themselves indubitably?

When I include Jews in this, I am talking about the fanatical Zionists who kill Palestinian Muslims because they believe they are have the right to in Israel, for geographical reasons.

Generally, Jews do not proselytize and tend to discourage converts, but welcome sincere converts.

The idea of God's-son-as-savior-of-mankind comes from pagan mythology, certainly, and is probably one of those archetypal myths that humans come up with. Indeed, Jesus is just like Apollo and Mithra as far as his characteristics and circumstances.
I don't believe there are any direct contemporary written accounts of his life or any direct proof that he actually lived.

Naltarial, you have made many good points that have yet to be answered satisfactorily by Xtians on this board. Thanks for starting this thread. Your English is good.

Happy Chinese New Year, just for fun!!

Doctor X

That and the "modern" argument of "you should join our cult so you are not stuck with Original Sin."

It boggles the mind. Apparently the Jews never heard of it. So, for thousands of years--only about 4000 if you are a Young Earth Creationist--guys show up in Hell or Purgatory depending on the theology wondering what happened.

"You had Original Sin."

"What?!! Did I miss the memo?!"

Of couse this seemed a bit nasty so, to steal from George Carlin, they invented "Limbo" for the unbaptised: "Because it was not really their fault."

--J.D.

CX

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Doctor X

I wish to Formally Protest the IMmoderator's attempt to turn this thread into a COMMERCIAL PITCH as clearly forbidden by the RULES--you know, in that sticky you never read--UNLESS, of course, he cuts me in for 10%. . . .

. . . consider it a tithe. . . .

--J. "If I Wanted to Make a Fortune I would Start a Religion" D.

Tercel

Naltariel,

Not all Christians believe in Original Sin. The doctrine was invented by Augustine ~400AD to justify infant baptism. Only the Roman Catholic Church, and the Protestants, who are the ideological heirs of Augustine accept the idea of Original Sin as you understand it.

The Eastern Orthodox Church, Oriental Orthodox Churches etc reject this doctrine. (ie Most christians in Greece, and east through to Russia, and south to Ethiopia) I agree Original Sin is silly, but then I'm East Orthodox and I used to be a liberal Protestant, so that's only to be expected really. (I hope I don't need to remind you that many liberal Protestants don't agree with Original Sin either)

Amos

To understand "original sin" this let me say that we are the "'rational' animal man" wherein we first are the "animal man" with a standard non-rational soul to which our faculty of reason is added (like "naked" or "hairy" animal are also conditions of being). This makes our faculty of reason a condition of being that belongs to the being but in this case we have learned to "go by it" and in doing so we have alienated ourselves from our intuition which was ours as the animal man in Eden where we had the mind of God -- if only because man was forced to go by intuition without the fruits from the TOK (notice that it was good for gaining wisdom beauty and food).

It is because we have a soul wherein we are God -- or to say the least that that is where we have the mind of God -- it is easy to see how in learning to know the depth, width and breadth of the lord our God that we get to know who we are, and once we know who we are we will no longer have a soul left and can go by our intuit knowledge which will have become rational knowledge as well. This is called "walking on water" in the bible and once we can walk on water will have arrived back in Eden were we can see the old heaven and the old earth in a new way because "the sea is no longer," to say that our soul is no longer because it has been dissolved in understanding (Rev.21:1 "Then I saw new heavens and a new earth, the former heavens and the former earth had passed away and the sea was no longer").

Original sin now means just being rational agents and redemption means to once gain become non-rational humans but with no soul left to impede upon our free will = pure reason = not non-rational.

A good beginning would be to remove the negative connotation from the word sin. After all, if the cross of eternal salvation is for sinners only, sin must be good if salvation is sought.

Opera Nut

Doctor X -- LOL!

Now I know why those Xtians are looking at me strangely -- I haven't been using Dirty Girl Soap!!! (Yes, it's probably made by the same bunch as the Bubble Bath and Pope-Soap-on-a-Rope).

Doctor X

Yes . . . and if you act now, for five easy payments of $39.95--plus shipping, handling, and other random charges--you can obtain the "Dirty Girl Finishing Rinse" which will leave a sanctimonious glow over your body!

--J. "And If You Call NOW" D.

Kosh

Well......

It's been 3 days and 3 nights (if you count them like the Jews did of course) since I issued this challenge to Magus. And not a peep out of him, even though he's managed to make 11 posts to other threads.

So we'll have to take that as a "I can't defend my assertions" type of answer.