FRDB Archives

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.


Go Back   FRDB Archives > Archives > Religion (Closed) > Biblical Criticism & History
Welcome, Peter Kirby.
You last visited: Yesterday at 03:12 PM

 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 10-12-2006, 05:39 PM   #1
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Australia
Posts: 5,714
Default Saints rising after Jesus died -- is there OT parallel?

According to Matthew 27:52, the "bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep" were raised:
50 And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit.
51 Then, behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth quaked, and the rocks were split,
52 and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised;
53 and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many.
I see that the word for "saints" is "hagios", meaning "holy ones", which is fair enough. But "[the saints] who had fallen asleep" (at least to me with no knowledge of the Greek) seems to possibly imply people who had died recently.

So my questions are:
(1) Who are the "holy ones" supposed to be? Does the passage hint at recently deceased people?
(2) Are there any parallels from the OT or elsewhere that this passage is supposed to have been derived from or influenced by?
GakuseiDon is offline  
Old 10-12-2006, 08:51 PM   #2
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Texas
Posts: 932
Default

GD
I've no clue, but it's imagery seems loaded with potential for either an OT reference, myth-borrowing, or some other significance.
gregor is offline  
Old 10-12-2006, 08:58 PM   #3
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: USA
Posts: 1,307
Default

The cross-references in the critical texts of the NT are pretty good (either UBS4 or NA27) for a preliminary look. They both suggest a cross-reference to Ezekiel 37:12-13.

Stephen
S.C.Carlson is offline  
Old 10-12-2006, 09:08 PM   #4
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Yes, I have dyslexia. Sue me.
Posts: 6,508
Default

Only "many" of the bodies of the saints and not "all" of them?

Curious. One wonders what they did to not have their bodies raised up, too, considering they were also "saints?" Too decayed? No, that wouldn't do it. Oh, only the "recently" dead saints. I guess that's it.

Though it almost sounds like someone who doesn't really know what mythologies he's referencing. Like it was just, you know, all made up, or something by somebody who didn't know what the hell he was talking about. Judeo-Theologically.

You know, like whoever wrote Mark?

:huh:
Koyaanisqatsi is offline  
Old 10-12-2006, 10:49 PM   #5
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Australia
Posts: 5,714
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by S.C.Carlson View Post
The cross-references in the critical texts of the NT are pretty good (either UBS4 or NA27) for a preliminary look. They both suggest a cross-reference to Ezekiel 37:12-13.

Stephen
Thanks Stephen, that's what I was looking for!
GakuseiDon is offline  
Old 10-13-2006, 06:52 AM   #6
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Atlanta
Posts: 2,060
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by GakuseiDon View Post
Thanks Stephen, that's what I was looking for!
The many (pollus) and sleeping seem to reflect Daniel 12:2 LXX.

Jake Jones IV
jakejonesiv is offline  
Old 10-13-2006, 07:07 AM   #7
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Colorado
Posts: 8,674
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by S.C.Carlson View Post
The cross-references in the critical texts of the NT are pretty good (either UBS4 or NA27) for a preliminary look. They both suggest a cross-reference to Ezekiel 37:12-13.

Stephen
BTW, here is the passage from the OT:

Quote:
11 Then he said to me: "Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel. They say, 'Our bones are dried up and our hope is gone; we are cut off.' 12 Therefore prophesy and say to them: 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: O my people, I am going to open your graves and bring you up from them; I will bring you back to the land of Israel. 13 Then you, my people, will know that I am the LORD, when I open your graves and bring you up from them. 14 I will put my Spirit in you and you will live, and I will settle you in your own land. Then you will know that I the LORD have spoken, and I have done it, declares the LORD.' "
Here is the passage from Matthew:

Quote:
51At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook and the rocks split. 52The tombs broke open and the bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. 53They came out of the tombs, and after Jesus' resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many people.

54When the centurion and those with him who were guarding Jesus saw the earthquake and all that had happened, they were terrified, and exclaimed, "Surely he was the Son[e] of God!"
Malachi151 is offline  
Old 10-13-2006, 07:19 AM   #8
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Texas, U.S.
Posts: 5,844
Default

Assuming the English is correctly translated, verses 52 and 53 states that as soon as Jesus "gave up the spirit" the bodies came to life. "They came out of the tombs" implies that only people buried in tombs in the first place were resurrected. No saints, presumably, were ever buried elsewhere. I'm not familiar with first-century Palestinian body disposal, but was every corpse buried in a tomb? I had thought that tombs were only for the wealthy. Or is tomb a generic term for gravesite?

Verse 53: "and after Jesus' resurrection they went into the holy city...."

So they came alive the instant Jesus died, and they immediately came out of their tombs, but then...what? Did they just mill about for a day and a half until Jesus could be resurrected? What did they eat and drink during this period? Did anyone see them sitting on their tombstones waiting for Sunday morning?

This seems like a slipup on Matthew's part. It's one thing to have a bunch of amazing natural wonders occur the instant Jesus died (darkness, earthquake, torn veil, etc.) but he brought out the secondary characters too soon in this scene. It would have been unseemly for these ordinary, nameless saints to have resurrection appearances before Jesus, so he had to have them resurrect, then hang around in suspended animation for 36 hours, and then go into town. It would have been far better to have the saints resurrect at the same time that Jesus did, sort of a spill-over effect of whatever magic resurrected their Lord. Imagine all the sermons if Matthew had edited this properly: "When Jesus comes, everything around him comes to life!" Still, why have I never seen a single Passion Play include this bit?

Also, Matthew gives away the ending in verse 53. He's just set up the gruesome death of Jesus accompanied by groans of nature's lamenting, but before the body is even buried we're told he's going to be resurrected, so the reader can relax.

And what in the world happened when these moldy corpses walked back into town? Did they try to track down their families? Did they assert that their widows should leave their new husbands and renew their marriage vows? Did they ask for their old jobs back? Did they kick out the people who were living in their homes, using their former possessions, etc? Were these resurrected saints, and not Mary and the other women, actually the first people to tell others that Jesus was alive?

Sadly, Matthew doesn't say. Why is that, do you think?
James Brown is offline  
Old 10-13-2006, 07:22 AM   #9
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Yes, I have dyslexia. Sue me.
Posts: 6,508
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Malachi151 View Post
BTW, here is the passage from the OT:

Here is the passage from Matthew:
Oh, well that explains it. In the "OT" it's specifically referring only to Jews being raised as the chosen people and purely as a metaphor for Israel ("bones are the whole house of Israel"); some Roman moron interprets that literally and changes it to "many saints" will actually rise bodily from their graves.

Again, as if he had no clue what the hell he was talking about.

:huh:
Koyaanisqatsi is offline  
Old 10-13-2006, 07:29 AM   #10
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 82
Default

Are there any extra Biblical contemporaneous references to this seemingly incredible event? The dead rising and walking around? Seems that someone else should have noticed this.
Jukia is offline  
 

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 12:46 PM.

Top

This custom BB emulates vBulletin® Version 3.8.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.