Gamera

Hmmm, maybe because he wants to make the point that living according to the flesh and excluding the spirit is a bad thing.

Just go and read them. They're short works. I can't do all your work for you. But you're not really interested in that are you. Your point is to claim that Paul is a gnostic. It's weird that you don't just come out and say it and then try to support the claim. Why the indirection?

You point it out, but it contradicts what Paul says, stating we shouldn't dishonor the body. Now how can we dishonor something that isn't worthy of honor. Spin spin spin.

Nope, flesh without spirit, bad. Flesh with spirit, good. See the difference?

Does it? Evidence?

No, we will not die. But live in transformed bodies. So the body isn't bad.

I would too. A neat statement. Too bad I don't know what it means.

Why is it a stretch, since dead people don't have stomach or food, but they will have a body according to Paul.

Most people die and their stomach is destroyed. A few won't but will be transformed in body without dying, destroying that pesky stomach. Problem solved.

Almost as tendentious as its detractors.

Whatever. Paul says we will exist as resurrected bodies, and that the flesh is only bad if excluded from the spirit. When not excluded, he says will most honor the body, meaning that the body is worth of honor. Now, spin away.

I think the really interesting question is, why it's so important to you that Paul be deemed a gnostic? What's that all about?

Steven Carr

I'm sure there is a very good reason why you cited the Gospel of Judas and the Gospel of Thomas as works which denigrate the flesh much more clearly than Paul does, and then refuse to quote any passages from them doing so.


There is nothing good in my flesh, writes Paul.

As I pointed out, Paul only thinks the body is good because it houses the spirit of God.

He does not think that sticking nails and swords into that body, or having it flogged dishonours it in any way.

Nor does he think that bodies without a spirit of God in them are good.

The Corinthians must have been awfully confused.

They converted to Christianity after hearing stories of Jesus eating fish, and now Paul is telling them they will be transformed into beings just like Jesus, beings without stomachs.

And what is so wrong with stomachs and food that they must be destroyed in an ideal world?

I guess if you are revolted by even such non-sinful activities as eating, you must really be praising the flesh that God has created.

Steven Carr

Where does Paul say that the soul will be resurrected?

The word usually used for soul 'psyche' is used by Paul to mean life. Vitality, if you will.

'Psyche', according to Paul , is what you lose when you die.

But please do quote Paul saying the 'psyche' will be resurrected. I look forward to such quotes.

Doug Shaver

What I was responding to was not anything Paul said. It was an interpretation of something Paul said.

You can claim that your interpretation is the only one that could possibly be correct, but not that it isn't an interpretation.

guy_683930

but Paul (or Deutero-Paul) was referring to the body in a metaphorical way in Ephesians.

Ephesians 1
"1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, To the saints who are also faithful in Christ Jesus: 2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. 5 He destined us in love to be his sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace which he freely bestowed on us in the Beloved. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace 8 which he lavished upon us. 9 For he has made known to us in all wisdom and insight the mystery of his will, according to his purpose which he set forth in Christ 10 as a plan for the fulness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth. 11 In him, according to the purpose of him who accomplishes all things according to the counsel of his will, 12 we who first hoped in Christ have been destined and appointed to live for the praise of his glory. 13 In him you also, who have heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and have believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 which is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.

15 For this reason, because I have heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love toward all the saints, 16 I do not cease to give thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers, 17 that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give you a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the knowledge of him, 18 having the eyes of your hearts enlightened, that you may know what is the hope to which he has called you, what are the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, 19 and what is the immeasurable greatness of his power in us who believe, according to the working of his great might 20 which he accomplished in Christ when he raised him from the dead and made him sit at his right hand in the heavenly places, 21 far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and above every name that is named, not only in this age but also in that which is to come; 22 and he has put all things under his feet and has made him the head over all things for the church, 23 which is his body, the fulness of him who fills all in all."

Deutero-Paul wrote about the knowledge of God along as part of the salvation practice and referred to Christ as that which fills all in all. That is a similar concept to how the writer of the Gospel of Phillip was using the flesh of Jesus.

The will is used in Paul's own writings in Romans 11-12.

Romans 11:33-12:2

"O the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways! For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who has been his counselor?Or who has given a gift to him that he might be repaid? For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory for ever. Amen. I appeal to you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship. Do not be conformed to this world but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that you may prove what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect. "

He also refers to making hidden teachings in 1 Corinthians, speaking about mysteries. To Paul himself, he said that sometimes he hid did not always make himself clear about what his mysteries were.

1 Corinthians 2
" When I came to you, brethren, I did not come proclaiming to you the testimony of God in lofty words or wisdom. For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ and him crucified. 3 And I was with you in weakness and in much fear and trembling; and my speech and my message were not in plausible words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, that your faith might not rest in the wisdom of men but in the power of God. Yet among the mature we do impart wisdom, although it is not a wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are doomed to pass away. But we impart a secret and hidden wisdom of God, which God decreed before the ages for our glorification. None of the rulers of this age understood this; for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. But, as it is written, "What no eye has seen, nor ear heard, nor the heart of man conceived, what God has prepared for those who love him,God has revealed to us through the Spirit. For the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God. For what person knows a man's thoughts except the spirit of the man which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit which is from God, that we might understand the gifts bestowed on us by God. And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who possess the Spirit. The unspiritual man does not receive the gifts of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. The spiritual man judges all things, but is himself to be judged by no one. "For who has known the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?" But we have the mind of Christ."



-Guy

Gamera

The soul isn't resurrected according to Paul. The body is. That's the point of resurrection, since the body dies and soul doesn't.

1 Cor 15: 39 -For not all flesh is alike, but there is one kind for men, another for animals, another for birds, and another for fish. 40 There are celestial bodies and there are terrestrial bodies; but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. 41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for star differs from star in glory. 42 So is it with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable, what is raised is imperishable. 43 It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. 44 It is sown a physical body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a physical body, there is also a spiritual body. 45 Thus it is written, "The first man Adam became a living being"; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 46 But it is not the spiritual which is first but the physical, and then the spiritual. 47 The first man was from the earth, a man of dust; the second man is from heaven. 48 As was the man of dust, so are those who are of the dust; and as is the man of heaven, so are those who are of heaven. 49 Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the man of heaven. 50

Again, you can disagree with this all you want -- you just can't disagree that Paul says it.

Gamera

Plain language is plain language.

Steven Carr

If Gamera now has his story straight, where does Paul say that the 'psyche' does not die?

Gamera

Because the soul is eternal. The body dies and is resurrected in a transformed state, moving from perishable to imperishable.

Geesh, you can disagree with Paul but this isn't rocket science.

Doug Shaver

If reasonable people disagree about what it means, then it is not so plain.

Maybe I personally am not reasonable, but lots of scholars disagree with your interpretation, and they cannot all be unreasonable.