Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Steven Carr · 08-02-2006, 10:38 PM

Does anybody have any good quotes from various works about how Gnostics denigrated flesh?

Here is one to set the ball rolling. 'For God has done what tle law, weakened by the flesh, could not do.'

There are no prizes for guessing who wrote that.

But does anybody have any other quotes denigrating flesh as a bad thing?

Gnostics , of course, believed that there was a 'god of this world', which was not the true God.

Are there any good quotes of Gnostice believing that?

gnosis92 · 08-03-2006, 07:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steven Carr

Does anybody have any good quotes from various works about how Gnostics denigrated flesh?

Here is one to set the ball rolling. 'For God has done what tle law, weakened by the flesh, could not do.'

There are no prizes for guessing who wrote that.

But does anybody have any other quotes denigrating flesh as a bad thing?

Gnostics , of course, believed that there was a 'god of this world', which was not the true God.

Are there any good quotes of Gnostice believing that?

Try Marcion's antithesis.

Julian · 08-03-2006, 07:47 AM

From Ptolemy's Letter to Flora:

Quote:

... to fast, not in physical fasting but in spiritual, in which there is abstinence from everything evil.
...
Among us external fasting is also observed, since it can be advantageous to the soul if it is done reasonably, not for imitating others or from habit or because of a special day appointed for this purpose. It is also observed so that those who are not yet able to keep the true fast may have a reminder of it from the external fast.

And from Basilides via Clement of Alexandria, Miscellanies 4.81.2-4.83.2

Quote:

Indeed, someone who intends to commit adultery is an adulterer even without succeeding in the act, and someone who intends to commit murder is a murderer even without being able to commit the act. Just so, if I see the aforementioned sinless person suffering despite having done no wrong, I must call that person evil by intent to sin. For I will say anything rather than call providence evil.

From the the Gospel of Philip:

Quote:

No one can know when the husband and the wife have intercourse with one another, except the two of them. Indeed, marriage in the world is a mystery for those who have taken a wife. If there is a hidden quality to the marriage of defilement, how much more is the undefiled marriage a true mystery! It is not fleshly, but pure. It belongs not to desire, but to the will. It belongs not to the darkness or the night, but to the day and the light. If a marriage is open to the public, it has become prostitution, and the bride plays the harlot not only when she is impregnated by another man, but even if she slips out of her bedroom and is seen. Let her show herself only to her father and her mother, and to the friend of the bridegroom and the sons of the bridegroom. These are permitted to enter every day into the bridal chamber. But let the others yearn just to listen to her voice and to enjoy her ointment, and let them feed from the crumbs that fall from the table, like the dogs. Bridegrooms and brides belong to the bridal chamber. No one shall be able to see the bridegroom with the bride unless he become such a one.

Theodotus on sinful nature:

Quote:

Be well disposed to it, not nourishing it and strengthening it by the power to commit sin, but putting it to death here and now, and thereby showing it as transitory by our refraining from evil.

And many, many more. Searching gnostic sources for fasting, sin, intercourse, abstinence and so forth will yield a fairly rich crop.

Julian

ETA: Here is a good one from Thomas the Contender:

Quote:

"Woe to you who love intimacy with womankind and polluted intercourse with them! Woe to you in the grip of the powers of your body, for they will afflict you! Woe to you in the grip of the forces of the evil demons! Woe to you who beguile your limbs with fire! Who is it that will rain a refreshing dew on you to extinguish the mass of fire from you along with your burning? Who is it that will cause the sun to shine upon you to disperse the darkness in you and hide the darkness and polluted water?

Steven Carr · 08-13-2006, 12:16 PM

One you may have missed 'There is nothing good in my flesh' - Paul in Romans 7.

Or another good one 'For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh' Paul in Galatians 5.

Clivedurdle · 08-13-2006, 12:41 PM

Isn't the quote from Phillip above about the marriage of christ and the church?

Rick Sumner · 08-13-2006, 02:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steven Carr

One you may have missed 'There is nothing good in my flesh' - Paul in Romans 7.

Or another good one 'For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh' Paul in Galatians 5.

Now, when I read your opening post, I knew this was where you were going with it. So my question is, why didn't you just offer it to begin with?

Regards,
Rick Sumner

Steven Carr · 08-13-2006, 10:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick Sumner

Now, when I read your opening post, I knew this was where you were going with it. So my question is, why didn't you just offer it to begin with?

I asked for quotes about Gnostic denigration of the flesh, because I wanted to see some quotes about Gnostic denigration of the flesh. Is that so hard to understand?

When I was shown them, I realised that none of them were as clearly scathing about flesh as Paul was.

jakejonesiv · 08-14-2006, 07:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steven Carr

I asked for quotes about Gnostic denigration of the flesh, because I wanted to see some quotes about Gnostic denigration of the flesh. Is that so hard to understand?

When I was shown them, I realised that none of them were as clearly scathing about flesh as Paul was.

You are discovering the Marcionite substratum of the Pauline epistles.
See here for Romans.

Jake Jones IV

Gamera · 08-14-2006, 03:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steven Carr

One you may have missed 'There is nothing good in my flesh' - Paul in Romans 7.

Or another good one 'For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh' Paul in Galatians 5.

A rather transparent way of trying to argue that Paul was a gnostic, when in fact it's clear he was the opposite. Paul denigrated not the flesh, but those who lived according to the flesh to the exclusion of the spirit. He specifically rejected notions of mortifying the flesh, and of course he specifically taught that all things -- including the flesh -- are good to those who have faith in Jesus.

Colossians 2:23 - These have indeed an appearance of wisdom in promoting rigor of devotion and self-abasement and severity to the body, but they are of no value in checking the indulgence of the flesh.

Philippians 1:20 - as it is my eager expectation and hope that I shall not be at all ashamed, but that with full courage now as always Christ will be honored in my body, whether by life or by death.

1 Cor 6- Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ? . . . .19 Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, which you have from God? You are not your own; 20 you were bought with a price. So glorify God in your body.

Regarding Paul's admonitions about nothing being good about the flesh, one word to you about Paul's rhetoric: exaggeration

As to genuine gnostic denigration of the flesh, just read any gnostic text, like the Gospel of Thomas or the recent Judas text

Steven Carr · 08-14-2006, 10:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gamera

A rather transparent way of trying to argue that Paul was a gnostic, when in fact it's clear he was the opposite. Paul denigrated not the flesh, but those who lived according to the flesh to the exclusion of the spirit. He specifically rejected notions of mortifying the flesh, and of course he specifically taught that all things -- including the flesh -- are good to those who have faith in Jesus.

Colossians 2:23 - These have indeed an appearance of wisdom in promoting rigor of devotion and self-abasement and severity to the body, but they are of no value in checking the indulgence of the flesh.

Philippians 1:20 - as it is my eager expectation and hope that I shall not be at all ashamed, but that with full courage now as always Christ will be honored in my body, whether by life or by death.

1 Cor 6- Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ? . . . .19 Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, which you have from God? You are not your own; 20 you were bought with a price. So glorify God in your body.

Regarding Paul's admonitions about nothing being good about the flesh, one word to you about Paul's rhetoric: exaggeration

As to genuine gnostic denigration of the flesh, just read any gnostic text, like the Gospel of Thomas or the recent Judas text

Gamera seems unable to provide any Gnostic quotes rivalling Paul's claim 'there is noting good in my flesh.', and that 'the flesh is the enemy of ths spirit.'

When Paul said 'There is nothing good in *my* flesh' , was he merely attacking a person who lived according to the flesh, and to the exclusion of the Spirit?

Was Paul saying that Paul himself lived according to the flesh, to the exclusion of the Spirit? After all, this is what Gamera claims that such passages mean.

I don't know what is meant by saying Paul did not denigrate flesh, but did denigrate people who live according to the flesh.

Is this like me claiming that Christian apologetics is perfectly good, but attacking people whose reasoning has been affected by Christian apologetics ?

Or is it like me saying that Christianity is good, and the only thing wrong is the fact that some people live according to Christianity?

As for Gamera's claim that the body is a Temple, what is good about the body is that it houses the spirit. The body is not good *in itself*, according to Paul.

According to Paul, there are people who have bodies which do *not* house the spirit.

Can Gamera find one word by Paul claiming that their flesh is good?

Paul declares in 1 Corinthians 6 that God will destroy both stomach and food.

Eating is hardly sinful, yet Paul thought that even such perfectly harmless fleshly activities as eating would not be present in a perfect world.

Is destroying the stomach mortification of the flesh?

Still, I look forward to Gamera's quotes from his two chosen works - the Gospel of Judas and the Gospel of Thomas - which , apparently , contain words exceeding Paul's statement 'There is nothing good in my flesh'.

08-02-2006, 10:38 PM	#1
Steven Carr Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: England Posts: 5,629	Gnostic denigration of flesh Does anybody have any good quotes from various works about how Gnostics denigrated flesh? Here is one to set the ball rolling. 'For God has done what tle law, weakened by the flesh, could not do.' There are no prizes for guessing who wrote that. But does anybody have any other quotes denigrating flesh as a bad thing? Gnostics , of course, believed that there was a 'god of this world', which was not the true God. Are there any good quotes of Gnostice believing that?

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08-13-2006, 12:16 PM	#4
Steven Carr Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: England Posts: 5,629	One you may have missed 'There is nothing good in my flesh' - Paul in Romans 7. Or another good one 'For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh' Paul in Galatians 5.

08-13-2006, 12:41 PM	#5
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	Isn't the quote from Phillip above about the marriage of christ and the church?

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