Johnny Skeptic

Micah 5:2 says "But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting." Even if Bethlehem Ephratah refers to a place and not to a person, other than "the Bible says so," what evidence is there that Jesus was born in Bethlehem?

mdarus

Let's check vital records for birth certificates...
You mean no one kept track of births?

Who was there we can ask? The three wise men did not leave their email, the shepherds did not leave a forwarding address, even Joseph drops out.

Maybe Mary would tell someone where he was born.
She would likely tell Jesus.
Looks like Mary is the only possible source.
Too bad Luke didn't record her memoirs. She would have been over 90 when Luke was in her area. She obviously couldn't have lived that long.
If Mary told someone could that account have been passed on to the writers of Luke and Matthew. Too much to hope for.

Amaleq13

Given the contents of the stories, yes, that is far too much to hope for but great faith is capable of ignoring many problems a merely rational mind cannot.

Neither of the incompatible and apparently fictitious birth stories gives any indication of having been passed on by Mary or any other eyewitness. The author of Luke fabricates an utterly idiotic census as part of his attempt to mimic the way histories were written while the author of Matthew is clearly retelling the story of the birth of Moses. Both are stories of faith and neither can be considered history in the way we define it, today. The author of Mark depicts Jesus' family, apparently including his mother, considering him crazy which is pretty stupid if Mary had been told by an angel that God was his daddy. In addition, the author of John makes no effort to correct the "mistaken" belief that Jesus was from Nazareth.

Logic&Reason

its not important at all considering this is just a part of a fable. Come on you know that!

Steven Avery

Unless the New Testament internal dating is simply accurate. Then Miriam would be 70, the research for Luke would by about 50 AD.

Incidentally the idea that folks generally died young (other than war) is very dubious, based upon very conjectural average ages that are themselves heavily skewed by the infant mortality issues. Many folks in those days were likely much healthier than folks today.

Johnny Skeptic

Which has what to do with where Jesus was born?

But what evidence do you have that Jesus was born in Bethlehem?

Do you believe that God sent the magi to Herod? If he did, then he was responsible for the needless deaths of some innocent children. Since God could just as easily have sent the magi directly to wherever Jesus was, why did Herod have to become involved?

What indicates to you that Jesus fulfilled Micah 5:2?

mdarus

It is intiguing to me that Luke includes the statement
"But Mary treasured up all these things and pondered them in her heart." Luke 2:19.
First I wonder, "Who would care what a woman thought about then?"
Then I wonder, "Who would know what she thought?" It adds little to the story since the theme is not brought up again so adding it in has little value. But if it is a remnant of the original source material, it is a lot more fun.

Sorry for backing into it Praxeus, but I agree that Luke had an opportunity to interview Mary when he was in Caesarea waiting for Paul to get a hearing. I like 50 AD. This would make a 16-year-old mother only 70 (given a 4 BC birth).

Given the state of records of birth inthe first century, the mother, Mary, is the only possible source for information about Jesus' birth. If you discount Mary, there is no other source. End of discussion.

darstec

Another woman. A great many things the author of Luke is concerned about are topics of interest to women. Women are the strong ones in that story.

Amaleq13

That's a tough one. Who would care what the mother of the Son of God thought about an angelic message to strangers about his birth? With the exception of every Christian, I can't think of one single person.

Do you also wonder, "How would the author know what Jesus said while praying all alone?" (Lk 22:41-44)

How about, "Where the heck did the author get the idea for that absurd census?"

I must have missed where you eliminated the rather obvious possibility that the author's imagination could be a source.

Amaleq13

Helms has suggested that the author was a woman.