vid

While researching about birth date of Jesus, I have run upon few claims that January 6th tradition is likely derived by usual exact-9-months gestation from April 6th, which is both conception and death of Jesus (supposedly, it was common belief in ancients that godmen are born and die on the same day). They also speculated April 6th is derived from calculation Pesah date around year 30-33 AD.

However, so far I was unable to find any direct ancient evidence for regarding April 6th as either conception or crossing date of Jesus.

Do you happen to know about any such mention in ancient literature? I remember article claiming there is some, but without any references.

David Henson

Jesus was born in the month of Ethanim (September - October) of 2 B.C.E. Most likely in the first week of October. He was born about 6 months after his cousin John, during the rule of Roman Emperor Caesar Augustus (31 B.C.E. - 14 C.E.) and the Syrian governorship of Quirinius and toward the close of the reign of Herod the Great over Judea. (Matthew 2:1, 13, 20-22 / Luke :1:24-31, 36 / 2:1, 2, 7)

DCHindley

That Apr 6 date would have to have been extrapolated from bishop Epiphanius' date for Jesus' birth, Jan 6, 2 BC, by assuming an exactly 9 Julian month pregnancy.

Epiphanius notes that some Christians dated the conception as occuring between the evening of 3/19 and 3/20, or 9 lunar months plus 15 days and 4 hours prior to his birth Jan 6. Epiphanius seems to have dated Jesus' death as occuring 3/20. One of the dates Clement of Alexandria assigned to his death would equate to 3/21.

FWIW, Epiphanius also said the Alogi heretics dated Jesus' conception as "seven lunar months less 4 days" before his birth, or Jun 20, 3 BC.

I take this from Jack Finegan's Handbook of Biblical Chronology (1964).

DCH

vid

AFAIK january 6th was present long before 4th century epiphanius. And the hypothesis I mentioned goes other way around: that the 6th january was derived from 6th april conception, which was taken to be same date as death on 6th april. And possibly, this death on 6th april comes from counting date of Pesah in year 30AD (fits perfectly according to http://doig.net/NTCIV.htm).

So the hypothesis goes to say that belief in january 6th birth is derived from belief in april 6th death (possibly derived from even now-common belief jesus died on Pesah 30 AD) and belief that godmen are concieved and die on same date.

Therefor, I am looking for any direct references early to april 6th, not january 6th (these allow hypothesis to go other way too, like in example you cited).

Wonder which one... I know dating from Clement is bit uncertain, because if you count with overlapping years Roman calendar, the main date he lists comes to mod november, however if you count without overlapping years Egyptian calendar, the main date turns out to be "classic" 6th january (according to http://pursiful.com/?p=182). This strongly hints he was counting without overlapping years. So I am not sure if it is sufficent to tell "one of Clement dates would equate to XYZ" without telling which date and which calendar / counting was used.

I haven't looked deeper at this source yet, will do. Thanks.

Jeffrey Gibson

Leaving aside the question of what "god-men" are, let alone whether early Christians thought of Jesus as one of these (as of yet undefined) beings, may I ask which "god men" were belived to have died on the same day they were born?

And where may we find attestation in primary sources to this "belief" as actually being a "common" one?

Jeffrey

vid

Good question, i forgot to be skeptical about that claim too. I'll have to find some evidence to back it up, or delete it from my article

As for "godmen", I use that word to denote god which had physical man-like nature, eg. he was born, died, did some actual actions here. As compared to deistic god, or epicurean gods, who are simply somewhere out and do nothing.

andrewcriddle

My blogpost epiphany-and-polycarp may be relevant.

Andrew Criddle

Jeffrey Gibson

I ask again -- who are these gods who did what you say they did, especially dying, let alone dying on the same day they were born (presumably on earth)?

And is this what early Christians actually thought Jesus was? Does Mark? Does Luke or Matthew?

Jeffrey

vid

I already admitted error accepting and repeating same-day claim without evidence, and I said I will go to either seek some evidence for those claims, or stop using them.

As for gods dying - Osiris, for example. (some reference here, bet you can find more easily). Or Adonis, killed by wild boar (wikipedia lists couple of references).

In my opinion partly yes, at least to extent that they agreed god can be born of woman (Luke and Matthew), can have body, walk the earth, eat, drink, and at least his physical part can die (all of them).

Anyway, what is your point? I don't see where are you heading with these questions.

vid

Thanks, helpful indeed. Some questions on your blogpost:

Where does Clement mention such claim in Stromata chapter 21? I couldn't find it (but I admit I couldn't read it entire, only part that contains dates. Reading the rest, I lose track almost instantly.

Where does Hippolytus say that? I remember that some of manuscripts of his Commentary of Daniel mention 25th december birth, other mention 2nd april. This would be argument for 25th december.

Would you be kind enough to recap his arguments?