Nazaroo

Allow me to answer this in the same way the Jesus would:

First I will ask you a question.

How did Jesus handle the question of the 'Perfection', plenary inspiration, textual transmission, and divine preservation of the Old Testament (Tanackh)?


Let me try to get at what I am driving at here:

Consider an army of soldiers in battle. Should soldiers stop to debate the purity or perfection, authority or authenticity of every order or command that comes over the radio or is delivered through the standard channels, or should they treat the order as requiring immediate attention to its content, and carry it out as quickly as possible without any delay?

Which action will result in a winning army? Is it the footsoldier's job to concern himself with the authenticity and transmission of every order he receives, even every order given to the entire army, even when he is not suitably trained to do so?

Would not the result of every soldier minding the business of other trained specialists be total chaos and an ineffective chain of command? Doesn't the soldier need 'faith', verily depend upon the reliability of his orders for his very life? Does he believe the system is perfect, or require it to be so?

No. none of this is necessary or efficient, and much of such activity would be downright detrimental, destructive, even crippling to any army, company, chain of command, in any critical operation.

Compare Jesus' attitude about the OT scriptures to the modern critic, even the modern Christian's:

"If you had believed Moses, you would have believed ME, for he spoke of ME."

The point isn't whether or not Jesus asserted or affirmed the divine inspiration or preservation of the Law of Moses. Jesus cuts short all discussion of this, and gets quickly to the key point: Did you get the message that was sent? Did you accept and obey it?

The state of the text in Jesus' day was completely irrelevant according to Jesus: WHY? because it was CLEAR ENOUGH. The Judaeans of Jerusalem had NO EXCUSE in rejecting the message of Jesus, because they had in their possession the message of Moses.

If the Commanding General shows up on the battlefield, his first question is DID YOU GET THE ORDERS? DID YOU CARRY THEM OUT? not,

Were they 99% pure? And when that general makes inquiry and discovers a perfectly good copy of his orders sitting on the table in the radio room, he has every right to expect, and DEMAND, that those orders be ALREADY carried out. There will be no time nor tolerance for a philosophical debate on 'purity'.

In wartime, you are shot for disobeying orders, with good reason.



What did Jesus say to the Roman Centurion who explained his trust to Jesus?

"I have not found this faithfulness/loyalty in ALL of Israel!" Jesus is saying LOOK! This centurion can understand and receive a simple instruction, and doesn't tie his weiner into a knot about it. HE JUST CARRIES IT OUT.


The examples in the NT are endless.

The 'faithful' Israelite, servant, disciple, is the one who CARRIES OUT THE INSTRUCTIONS without a bunch of bullshit.

What happens to the soldier who has perfectly good ears, but refuses to do what he is told? They execute him by firing squad.

Nazaroo

The point is made over and over again:

"A Greater than Jonah, a Greater than Moses, a Greater One than John is here."

The general has arrived to find his orders DID get through perfectly well, and HE is in a perfect position to judge whether or not there was any problem with their transmission.

Jesus HELD them responsible for their failure to obey, and receive Him. He CLEARLY implies there is nothing wrong enough with the message and its transmission to provide any excuse for not carrying out the orders of the Creator of Heaven and Earth.

----------------------------

Lets try another example. Jesus states a truism, to see what reaction He might find. Will He find wisdom, or even common sense? Or will He find some lawyer trying to find a loophole or an excuse to MISUNDERSTAND the WORD OF GOD?

"I have come only to the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel."

The woman replies (and she is not a rocket scientist):

"Even dogs are fed scraps from the table."

He applauds her and praises her. Why? Her example shows that even a woman of Gentile status, someone NOT specially instructed or expert in Torah or the Prophets, someone not even allowed within 100 yards of the Holy areas of the Temple...to put it bluntly,

Even this ignorant foreign peasant has enough common sense to know her own rights, even as an example par excellence of the marginalized, unwashed poor, the needy, the weak, the oppressed.

And what does it mean for Israel? They are utterly condemned for even suggesting that this helpless needy neighbour deserves nothing, creates no obligation, has no status, is not the responsibility of Israel.

Jesus confirms her words. SHE IS RIGHT. Israel has NO EXCUSE for not carrying out the REQUIREMENTS of the TORAH and feeding, caring for this foreigner, this needy person living within Israel's gates.

If some smart-ass lawyer stood up at this point and proposed a loophole getting all those rich assholes 'off the hook', Jesus would have cursed them like the Fig Tree.

hatsoff

That's a bad analogy. We're not soldiers in a war, taking order from fellow persons, but humans on earth, sorting out alleged transmissions from God. The two situations are not comparable.

Nazaroo

No. That is the whole point.

There IS no excuse. We are not 'sorting out alleged transmissions'. We know perfectly well what the message was. It has been copied, paraphrased, elaborated, highlighted and underlined for 3000 years.

And only a fool would think that he could try your excuse on Judgement Day to explain why he didn't simply do what God asked.

And just in case we LOST the focus in Moses' transmission, Jesus comes back to underscore it again, and put it up in 400 foot high NEON letters:

"The greatest Commandments are these:
To love the Lord with all your heart, soul, body and mind,
and to love your neighbour as yourself."

In case we still pretend we didn't get it, he spells it out over and over, paraphrases and elaborates with examples:

"A NEW Commandment I give you, to love one another as I have loved you."


"There is no greater love than this;
that a man gives his life for his friends."

and he completes the picture with copious examples like the Good Samaritan.




Good luck with your excuse. I'd at least rehearse it like hell before trying it out before the Throne of Judgement.

But you might find that was more work than just doing what Jesus said.

Riverwind

Except that whenever the bible shows you to be in grave error, you reject it as if you don't really know what the message was. You certainly don't seem to understand the message.

Riverwind

How on earth do you think you do anything like what is mentioned above?

Why don't you ask those you call ***ing liars and such if they feel loved by you?

Nazaroo

How will that save your ass?

Jesus has already made it perfectly clear that He will accept no excuses.

Lets see how your idea floats:


"Oh Jesus, I would have loved my neighbour, but there was this guy on the internet who was a loudmouth, so I was completely bamboozled and forgot entirely what you said, for about 45 years straight."

Riverwind

I'm not talking about mine, I'm talking about yours. You talk about scripture but appear to reject all of it except the parts that you think allow you to act like a total jerk here on these forums.

Nazaroo

I am so glad you have chosen to publicly express concern for my ass.

We'll see how sincere that is on Judgement Day.

Your analysis of my posts is inaccurate. But as I pointed out, even if I were Satan himself, how does that help you?

Steven Avery

Hi Folks,

So back to the OP question.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nazaroo "If you had believed Moses, you would have believed ME, for he spoke of ME." "I have not found this faithfulness/loyalty in ALL of Israel!" The examples in the NT are endless. "A Greater than Jonah, a Greater than Moses, a Greater One than John is here." "I have come only to the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel." "Even dogs are fed scraps from the table." Jesus would have cursed them like the Fig Tree. "The greatest Commandments are these: To love the Lord with all your heart, soul, body and mind, and to love your neighbour as yourself." "A NEW Commandment I give you, to love one another as I have loved you." "There is no greater love than this; that a man gives his life for his friends." ... examples like the Good Samaritan.

Nazaroo, how do these references have authority ?
Are they ... scripture ?

And only for those books reference above ?
What is the NT that you reference above ?
What are its component books ?
And how do you know if a book or chapter or verse is valid, with authority ?

And what if the authorship of these books is questioned ?
Like you questioned Galatians.

Do they then lose some or all of their authority ?
Or do you simply extract the verses with which you feel comfortable ?

Shalom,
Steven Avery