Tenshu

Hey

This link was thrown at me, recently in debate. Any ideas?

http://www.bible.ca/b-prophecy-60.htm

Thanks

Family Man

It's called reverse engineering. What the gospel writers did was to mine the OT for prophecies then wrote their narratives to fit. There's nothing particularly persuasive in that page except perhaps the naivete of the author.

Diogenes the Cynic

That page is so riddled with fallacies I hardly know where to start.

First of all, almost nothing the page calls a "prophesy" actually is a Messianic prophesy when read in context.

Secondly, the page claims hits for such absurdities as "he pre-existed creation." Huh? That's not even a Messianic expectation (the OT Messiah is not God) but even if it were, where does the author of this page get the idea that Jesus fulfilled it?

I don't really have the inclination to do a line by line debunking but I will point out a typical example of the page's generosity of interpretation. It claims that Herod's slaughter of the innocents was predicted by Jeremiah 31:15. Here is what that "prophecy" actually says:


This is what the LORD says:

"A voice is heard in Ramah,

mourning and great weeping,

Rachel weeping for her children

and refusing to be comforted,

because her children are no more."




It's obviously beyond specious to get from there to Herod killing babies in Bethlehem (to be fair, Matthew did it first and this web page is just parakeeting the gospel). There's also the fact that Herod's slaughter is a Matthean fiction that never happened anyway so here we have a prophecy that wasn't a prophecy and a "fulfillment" that never occurred.

The whole list is like that. When you actually spend even a few minutes reading the "prophecies" you see what bunk this all is, even leaving aside the fact that much of the gospels were written by raiding the Septuagint for any suggestive passages that could be found and then fabricating a narrative out of these decontextualized bits and pieces.

Oh...and when you look at the genuine Messianic prophecies in the Tanakh, it turns out that Jesus completely dropped the ball on all of them.

spin

Just read the first prophecy: "Born of the seed of woman". I can't imagine that he'd be born of a hamster, could you?

The second: "Born of a virgin." If she's already pregnant as she is in Isa 7:14 (check a decent translation), then she ain't a virgin, besides the Hebrew doesn't call'er a virgin -- it was mistranslated into Greek. And the "prophecy" was about the arrival of the Assyrians. Add to this #13, "Called Immanuel (God with us)", though if I remember correctly, he was called "Jesus".

Third, fourth and fifth: "Seed of Abraham", "Seed of Isaac" and "Seed of Jacob". Umm, he was Jewish, wasn't he?? Umm, being Jewish meant to be one of the twelve tribes, sons of Jacob, who was son of Isaac, who was son of Abraham.

As you can see this stuff was written by a dork with tunnel vision.

If you look at each of these so-called prophecies you will find that they almost all do not reflect the context in which they were written, ie the text was talking about something else, though often the significance of that context has been lost (eg the second half of Daniel, which deals with the Hellenistic crisis 175-160 BCE, but the Christians reading it didn't know the context) and a sentence was removed and arbitrarily applied to the figure of Jesus.

Rule: don't accept anything called a "prophecy" about Jesus unless both you and your interlocutor understand the context from which the "prophecy" comes.

If you see that the prophecy was talking about something specific to the text, which clearly was not Jesus, then you must reject it. If you cannot understand the context, then probably neither can your interlocutor, and you must reject it.


spin

Tenshu

Thanks for the excellent answers and the work put into it.

Sorry to bother you with all this, or if I come across as lazy. This bible criticism is definitely my weak point. He proposed more, all taken from www.100prophecies.org/prophecy.htm (original in italic, his comments normal)

In Matthew 24:1-2, Jesus said that the Temple would be destroyed. The Temple was destroyed about 40 years after Jesus was crucified by the Romans. In 70 AD, the Romans destroyed Jerusalem and killed an estimated 1.1 million Jews. During the destruction, fire was set to the Temple. The fire caused the gold-leaf ornamentation on the Temple ceiling to melt. The melting gold flowed down the walls and settled into crevices within the stones. The Romans pried apart the stones to remove the gold. This fulfilled Jesus' prophecy that not one stone would be left standing on another.

The first Temple was destroyed by the Babylonians in 586 BC and was rebuilt 70 years later. The rebuilt Temple stood for 586 years and was destroyed by the Romans in 70 AD.

According to the ancient historian Josephus, both Temples were destroyed on the same day of their respective years - the 9th day of the Jewish month of Av.

Jesus left the temple and was walking away when his disciples came up to him to call his attention to its buildings. “Do you see all these things?� he asked. “I tell you the truth, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.�

In Micah 3:11-12, the prophet Micah said that Jerusalem would be destroyed and that "Zion" - a central part of Jerusalem - would be "plowed like a field." Micah's prophecy is believed to have been delivered in about 730 BC (about 2700 years ago). Since that time, Jerusalem was destroyed in 586 BC by the Babylonians and by the Romans in 70 AD. The Romans destroyed it again in 135 AD to crush a Jewish rebellion for independence. According to a text in the Gemara - a collection of ancient Jewish writings - the Romans ran a plow over Zion on the 9th day of the Jewish month of Ab. The Gemara said that Turnus Rufus, a Roman officer, plowed the area of the Temple. This prophecy was fulfilled in literal detail. Incidentally, there was a Roman coin minted during that era that shows an image of a man using a plow. The coin was intended to commemorate the founding of the pagan Roman city called Aelia Capitolina on the site of Jerusalem. The Romans sometimes minted coins showing the plowing motif as a symbol of the establishment of a new Roman city.

Her leaders judge for a bribe, her priests teach for a price, and her prophets tell fortunes for money. Yet they lean upon the Lord and say, "Is not the Lord among us? No disaster will come upon us." Therefore because of you, Zion will be plowed like a field, Jerusalem will become a heap of rubble, the temple hill a mound overgrown with thickets.

In Jeremiah 32:37-41, the prophet said the people of Israel would return to their homeland. Jeremiah lived during a time when the Babylonians were forcing the Jews out of their homeland about 2600 years ago. Many Jews later returned but were forced out again, by the Romans, about 1900 years ago. During the past 200 years, millions of exiled Jews have returned to Israel from countries all over the world.

I will surely gather them from all the lands where I banish them in my furious anger and great wrath; I will bring them back to this place and let them live in safety. They will be my people, and I will be their God.

In Isaiah 35:1-2, the prophet said that although Israel would become a desolate land, its deserts would one day bloom again. This Bible verse foreshadows the restoration of Israel that has been taking place since the early 1900s. Millions of Jews have returned to their ancient homeland and have innovated sophisticated farming techniques and extensive reforestation programs to convert parched desert into productive farmland. More than 200 million trees have been planted in Israel since 1900, according to the Jewish National Fund.
The desert and the parched land will be glad; the wilderness will rejoice and blossom. Like the crocus, it will burst into bloom; it will rejoice greatly and shout for joy. The glory of Lebanon will be given to it, the splendor of Carmel and Sharon; they will see the glory of the Lord, the splendor of our God.

In Isaiah 66:7-8, the prophet foreshadowed the re-birth of Israel in 1948. Isaiah describes a woman giving birth before going into labor, and he speaks of a country being born in one day. This accurately describes what happened on May 14, 1948 - when the Jews declared independence for Israel as a united and sovereign nation for the first time in 2900 years.

"Before she goes into labor, she gives birth; before the pains come upon her, she delivers a son. Who has ever heard of such a thing? Who has ever seen such things? Can a country be born in a day or a nation be brought forth in a moment? Yet no sooner is Zion in labor than she gives birth to her children."

In Leviticus 26:3, 7-8, the Bible says that the army of Israel would have a supernatural power to prevail during times of conflict, if the people are obedient to the Lord. This Bible passage says that 5 people would be able to chase away 100 people, and that 100 would be able to chase away 10,000. Is there any proof to this incredible claim? Judge for yourself:

Example 1: Within hours of Israel's declaration of independence in 1948, Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Iraq, and Lebanon invaded Israel. The combined population of those countries was at least 20 million at that time. Israel had fewer than 1 million Jews. Even so, the Jews won the war and expanded the size of Israel by 50 percent.
Example 2: During the War of 1967, Israel attacked the air force bases of the surrounding countries and took control of Jerusalem for the first time in about 2000 years. They also seized additional territory. That war lasted a mere 6 days.
Example 3: On Oct. 6, 1973, Israel was attacked by Egypt and Syria. Other countries later joined the attack. But the Jews were able to push back the attacking armies and occupy land outside of Israel's borders.
"If you follow my decrees and are careful to obey my commands, … You will pursue your enemies, and they will fall by the sword before you. Five of you will chase a hundred, and a hundred of you will chase ten thousand, and your enemies will fall by the sword before you."

Thanks

Boro Nut

So ignoring those killed by the guns tanks and aircaft, how many exactly fell by the sword before them then? Were accurate records kept? There must have been at least a dozen.

Boro Nut

spin

I'm too lazy to read all this crap, but doesn't the writer know that Herod demolished the little temple built apparently after the exile and had it rebuilt? It hadn't been finished too long when the Romans pulled it down. But then, hell, what's the big deal if the Temple actually stood for 586 years? Are you impressed by numbers? How long did a temple stand on the same spot before 586 BCE? How long has one not stood there?

When people purvey pat answers that they haven't prepared, they are generally wasting your time and aren't able to justify the slop themselves.

If you're unprepared in the subject, you should get prepared. You can't rely on other people to do your work for you, but I'm sure if you do a decent web search, you will find someone who has been driven to hold your hand. If you really need it held, seek them out.


spin

Eldarion Lathria

Actually, part of a wall of Herod's temple is still standing, the so-called Wailing or Western Wall, so the prophecy of not one stone remaining on another was false as well.

Eldarion Lathria

Diogenes the Cynic

I guess it's worth mentioning as well that the "prophecy" was written after the destruction of the Temple.

Lógos Sokratikós

Not even a generation before, the Jews were being massacred by millions... Wow, these Hebrews can change their evil ways soooooo fast!

Now, if they were any other people in the world... You could explain it with naturalistic hypotheses such as: they were educated westerners well seasoned in the arts and crafts of war, motivated by the holocaust, while their enemies were mostly under-educated, camel herders used to being just docile under centuries long turkish rule... But no! Since you have to justify your pet bronze age mythologies, we have to season it up so it looks like a chapter from the Lord of the Rings?
That way, every other battle won by any other people in the world will look naturalistic, and the Jews' victories will look divine!

Plus... Who said the Jews keep the word of God? First, they reject Christ (I'm supposing you're Christian, so, saying that they "keep the word of God" is such a contradiction!), second, Israel is ranked as one of the Top 10 Countries With Highest Percentage of Atheists (1991)

What a load o' baloney, man... for cryin' out loud!