Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Stephen T-B · 10-06-2008, 11:49 AM

Heard a BBC programme in the car today about the Codex Sinaiticus
(http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/7651105.stm) which "lay undisturbed in a Sinai monastery, until it was found - or stolen, as the monks say - in 1844 and split between Egypt, Russia, Germany and Britain."
The article on that site goes on to say "Now these different parts are to be united online and, from next July, anyone, anywhere in the world with internet access will be able to view the complete text and read a translation.
"...For those who believe the Bible is the inerrant, unaltered word of God, there will be some very uncomfortable questions to answer. It shows there have been thousands of alterations to today's bible.... (it) also has books which are missing from the Authorised Version that most Christians are familiar with today - and it does not have crucial verses relating to the Resurrection. "
The discussion I heard involved various academics, including one at an American university who was, until he began to study the Codex, an Evangelical inerrantist. He now thinks the "Bible" as we know it cannot be the word of God because it is apparent that practically everyone who has ever had a hand in writing down the "Biblical" stories has adopted a pretty free-and-easy approach to it - inluding fabricating all the Resurrection stories after the bit about the three women finding the empty tomb.
Don't suppose, though. that any of this will inconvenience the true inerrantists...

bacht · 10-06-2008, 11:56 AM

How could the object of one's idolatry be imperfect?

Stephen T-B · 10-06-2008, 12:49 PM

Most people, I suppose, think that religions are a fabrication of mankind - with the single exception of the one to which they adhere.
To date, however, none of those religions’ gods has come forward to put the record straight for all humankind, and thus the disagreements continue. Hardly surprising, then, that those who think Christianity is one of those fabrications will seize upon the Codex Sinaiticus as further evidence of that fact while Christians will find ways of dismissing the texts as being anything of the sort.

Minimalist · 10-06-2008, 02:02 PM

Quote:

To date, however, none of those religions’ gods has come forward to put the record straight for all humankind,

One wonders why that is?

mountainman · 10-06-2008, 04:36 PM

From WIKI ....

Quote:

Early history of codex

Of its early history, a little is known. It is thought to have been written in Egypt in the fourth century. It could not be written before A.D. 325 because it contains the Eusebian Canons, and it is a terminus a quo.

It can not be written after A.D. 350 because references to the Church fathers on a margin notes exclude that possibility. A.D. 350 is a terminus ad quem. According to Tischendorff it was one of the fifty copies of the Bible commissioned from Eusebius by Roman Emperor Constantine after his conversion to Christianity (De vita Constantini, IV, 37).[12] This hypothesis was supported by T. C. Skeat.[13]

Tischendorf believed four separate scribes copied the work (whom named A, B, C, and D), and five correctors amended portions, one of them contemporaneous with the original scribes, the others dating to the sixth and seventh centuries. Modern analysis identifies at least three scribes. A paleographical study at the British Museum in 1938 found that the text had undergone several corrections. The first corrections were done by several scribes before the manuscript left the scriptorium. In the sixth or seventh century many alterations were made, which, according to a colophon at the end of the book of Esdras and Esther states, that the source of these alterations was "a very ancient manuscript that had been corrected by the hand of the holy martyr Pamphylus" (martyred AD 309).

Hello? Who was the Asclepian healer Lithargoel?
Was Constantine a malevolent despot or a good christian?
Ample evidence of political suppression c.350 CE is forthcoming.
One only need read the Theodosian Codex to see it.

The first bible - The Constantine Bible - was lavishly published
by a military supremacist who is described as a brigand. What
is a brigand? A pirate on land.

Best wishes,

Pete

Transient · 10-06-2008, 06:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Minimalist

Quote:

To date, however, none of those religions’ gods has come forward to put the record straight for all humankind,

One wonders why that is?

hehe gee beats me. Can't think why not

sschlichter · 10-06-2008, 08:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bacht

How could the object of one's idolatry be imperfect?

I am a little confused as to what sect of Christianity worships the Bible?

I am also trying to figure out why the possibility of incompleteness (or even the existence) of Codex Sinaiticus is somehow essential. Couldn't we re-assemble the Bible without it from much earlier fragments and quotes?

~Steve

Minimalist · 10-06-2008, 09:24 PM

Could you? What would be your template?

mountainman · 10-06-2008, 09:50 PM

[QUOTE=mountainman;5589499]From WIKI ....

Quote:

Early history of codex

Tischendorf believed four separate scribes copied the work (whom named A, B, C, and D), and five correctors amended portions, one of them contemporaneous with the original scribes, the others dating to the sixth and seventh centuries. Modern analysis identifies at least three scribes. A paleographical study at the British Museum in 1938 found that the text had undergone several corrections. The first corrections were done by several scribes before the manuscript left the scriptorium.

The early part of the fourth century certainly may have seen some massive scriptoriums ....

Quote:

Originally Posted by AM

The Historia Augusta is the classic example of historiographic mystery. The work purports to have been written by six authors at various moments of the reigns of Diocletian and Constantine. Some at least of the alleged authors claim to have written in collaboration. This very claim of team-work is baffling: cooperative ‘Cambridge histories were not common in antiquity. The writing is sensational and unscrupulous, and the forged documents included in this work serve no obvious purpose. One or two passages may point to a post-Constantinian date either for the whole collection or at least for the passages themselves. But the date and the purpose of the Scriptores Historiae Augustae remain au unsolved problem.

Best wishes,

Pete

Joan of Bark · 10-07-2008, 04:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sschlichter

Quote:

Originally Posted by bacht

How could the object of one's idolatry be imperfect?

I am a little confused as to what sect of Christianity worships the Bible?

This may be an argument over semantics, but almost all Christians believe the Bible to be inspired by God and therefore "special" in a way no other book(s) in history can lay claim to. Many also react in an extremely strong manner if the Bible is mistreated physically, or referred to derisively. Christians might also think you a bit nutty if you took the Koran and used it as toilet paper; they would react far more strongly if you did the same with the Bible. And until the Enlightenment many critics were censored, imprisoned or even executed for questioning any part of the Bible. Aren't these reactions really just an indication of worship?

10-06-2008, 11:49 AM	#1
Stephen T-B Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Leeds, UK Posts: 5,878	The oldest Bible Heard a BBC programme in the car today about the Codex Sinaiticus (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/7651105.stm) which "lay undisturbed in a Sinai monastery, until it was found - or stolen, as the monks say - in 1844 and split between Egypt, Russia, Germany and Britain." The article on that site goes on to say "Now these different parts are to be united online and, from next July, anyone, anywhere in the world with internet access will be able to view the complete text and read a translation. "...For those who believe the Bible is the inerrant, unaltered word of God, there will be some very uncomfortable questions to answer. It shows there have been thousands of alterations to today's bible.... (it) also has books which are missing from the Authorised Version that most Christians are familiar with today - and it does not have crucial verses relating to the Resurrection. " The discussion I heard involved various academics, including one at an American university who was, until he began to study the Codex, an Evangelical inerrantist. He now thinks the "Bible" as we know it cannot be the word of God because it is apparent that practically everyone who has ever had a hand in writing down the "Biblical" stories has adopted a pretty free-and-easy approach to it - inluding fabricating all the Resurrection stories after the bit about the three women finding the empty tomb. Don't suppose, though. that any of this will inconvenience the true inerrantists...

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

10-06-2008, 11:56 AM	#2
bacht Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Canada Posts: 2,305	How could the object of one's idolatry be imperfect?

10-06-2008, 12:49 PM	#3
Stephen T-B Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Leeds, UK Posts: 5,878	Most people, I suppose, think that religions are a fabrication of mankind - with the single exception of the one to which they adhere. To date, however, none of those religions’ gods has come forward to put the record straight for all humankind, and thus the disagreements continue. Hardly surprising, then, that those who think Christianity is one of those fabrications will seize upon the Codex Sinaiticus as further evidence of that fact while Christians will find ways of dismissing the texts as being anything of the sort.

10-06-2008, 09:24 PM	#8
Minimalist Veteran Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: Arizona Posts: 1,808	Could you? What would be your template?

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.