Originally Posted by graymouser

Really? Where in the context of Lk. 14:26 does Jesus say that anyone who follows him must love God or his family? After all, if you're saying that it's a literary construction meaning "you must love your father and mother less than God," where is the follower instructed to love God? Your prior example, on which you're attempting to build a case, of the contrast of "love" and "hate" in Gen. 29:30-31 (the LXX, which would have been known to the NT writers, used agapw and misew) builds on the interplay of the two words. Yet there is no agapw in the discourse in Lk. 14:25-35, only misew. A parallel construction can't work if only half the parallel is there.

What's interesting is that this verse does have a pretty clear meaning in its context, but it isn't the apologetic "love them less than God." Jesus says "Whoever does not carry his own cross and come after Me cannot be My disciple." (14:27, all cites are from NASB) and "So then, none of you can be My disciple who does not give up all his own possessions." (14:33). He is not asking for God to come first and other affections second - he is saying that discipleship must be a follower's sole concern in life. If you are to be a Christian, you are commanded to not only believe in Jesus, but to follow him without regard for possessions, family or (and this is quite clear from the "carry his own cross" line) your own life.

Now, this isn't family friendly, so conservative Christians really want Jesus to not have said the bit about hating your family. And it's clear, to some degree, he was being emphatic - you need to devote yourself to the point where you despise your family. But it's twisting the plain meaning to make this into "well, you should love your family but love God more."

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

There does seem to be some sort of connection between the passage in Luke and Matthew 10: 37-39 Note for example the similar use of the idea of "taking up the cross". Neither the Matthew passage nor the Lukan one is particularly "family friendly" but in Matthew we have the idea of degrees of love made explicit. (Loving your family but loving God more.)

There may be disagreement as to how far Matthew is toning down the earlier idea found more accurately in Luke, or Luke exaggerating the original idea found in Matthew; but both passages seem to be attempting to vividly express what is ultimately the same idea.

Andrew Criddle

Originally Posted by No Robots

It doesn't seem to me that the popes have ever followed Christ to the letter. I mean, that's impossible for just about anyone. The point of hating one's parents is to free oneself from the coils of fleshly existence in order to serve the Spirit fully and completely. While no one can really do this (practicality is not Christ's concern), it is nevertheless a useful passage to bring to mind when one is seeking, for whatever reason, to escape parental control.

Originally Posted by Elijah

Are you interpreting this like Ibelieve, as in him giving an ethical teaching there about the need to love god more than your family... or in the context of it being about the price of following him which will probably cost you your life, at the time? It seems obviously about the martyrdom issue because the loving god more thing is kind of nonsense, regardless of the popularity of that interpretation.

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

I'm suggesting that the Matthew passage I cited, and the Lukan passage we have been discussing are making basically the same point in different language. This point, (which is roughly that in a conflict between your committal to God and your committal to your family, your family loses), can be expressed either in terms of hating your family, or in terms of loving God more than your family. But it is still IMO basically the same point.

In both cases the context is, as you suggest, the cost (including the risk of martyrdom) involved in following Jesus.

I'm not quite clear about the contrast you are making, between general ethical principles and teaching intended for that particular time. Jesus' ethical teaching is all given against the background of the crisis of the current age; ie it is directed primarily to the needs of the time, despite its more general implications.

Andrew Criddle

Originally Posted by IBelieveInHymn

The message Jesus was saying in Luke is to love God more than your own family. The message in Matthew is pretty much the same, he just says it differently.

Atheists have a hard time putting 2 and 2 together. they keep coming up with 5. When the answer is 4, but they don't like that answer.. They insist I am wrong.

Originally Posted by graymouser

Matthew 10:37 says that whoever loves their family more than Jesus is not worthy of him. Luke 14:26 says that anyone who would follow him should hate or despise their family. In context, both of these verses are quite consistent with the actual message of the New Testament: the end is near, so you should abandon your family (and possessions) and follow Christ. It has nothing to do with an imagined commandment to love your family, and the reason I bring it up is to point out that the Christian Bible is actually quite strongly against "family values," in opposition to the modern chorus of Christians who think that their religion is in support of family.

Originally Posted by IBelieveInHymn

Think about your post one more time.

Matthew says whoever loves their mother and father more than me is not worthy of me.

Luke is the same meaning, with a different twist of flavor. whoever loves their parents more than me is not worthy of me.

I can't believe you don't see this.

I can't make it any more clear for you.

Notice Matthew doesn't say "If you don't HATE your parents?"

NO! it says "if you LOVE your parents more than me."

This is where you're getting confused. You are clearly uneducated with ancient Hebrew.