Freethought & Rationalism Archive

No Robots · 10-04-2007, 08:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Your statement cannot be verified. The authors of the NT are unknown.

Now all the writers both of the Old Testament and the New were Hebrews: therefore, a knowledge of the Hebrew language is before all things necessary, not only for the comprehension of the Old Testament, which was written in that tongue, but also of the New: for although the latter was published in other languages, yet its characteristics are Hebrew.--Spinoza, TTP, Chap. 7

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

John's anti-Jewish sentiment was later attenuated to be anti-Pharisaism.

I would say that Christ's anti-Pharisaism is expanded into general opposition to rabbinic Judaism.

Toto · 10-04-2007, 08:19 AM

Please update your bookmarks for the Journal of Higher Criticism

Citizens of Heaven: Philippians 3:2-21 as a Deutero-Pauline Passage

dog-on · 10-04-2007, 08:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

Quote:

Originally Posted by dog-on

Was Stoicism also part of the culture of Tarsus at this time?

Stoicism was a strong philosophical movement throughout the Mediterranean. I don't know of any famous Stoics from the specific region, but it is highly likely that Stoicism was there.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dog-on

Citizens of Heaven.
Philippians 3:2-21 as a Deutero-Pauline Passage

Hopefully you ask because of my mention of Paul being a Pharisee, which is stated in this passage in Philippians. There are source critical issues with the epistle, but I don't think there is any need to get into them. The biographical details are consistent with Gal 1:13-23. Although I see little reason to abandon them, I don't need them either in that Galatians would suffice to discount any overtly non-Jewish background. (It was just briefer to mention that he called himself a Pharisee at the time.)

spin

Maybe you are using one famous "Deutero" passage to support another...

spin · 10-04-2007, 08:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by No Robots

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Your statement cannot be verified. The authors of the NT are unknown.

Now all the writers both of the Old Testament and the New were Hebrews: therefore, a knowledge of the Hebrew language is before all things necessary, not only for the comprehension of the Old Testament, which was written in that tongue, but also of the New: for although the latter was published in other languages, yet its characteristics are Hebrew.--Spinoza, TTP, Chap. 7

Spinoza was not in a position to know anything about the characteristics of ancient Hebrews.

Quote:

Originally Posted by No Robots

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

John's anti-Jewish sentiment was later attenuated to be anti-Pharisaism.

I would say that Christ's anti-Pharisaism is expanded into general opposition to rabbinic Judaism.

It seems that you haven't analysed the evidence.

spin

dog-on · 10-04-2007, 08:55 AM

If one seriously studied the Septuagint (sp?), could one develop a certain knowledge of Judaism from it? Would one also betray his source of such knowledge when certain interpretations fell more in-line with this Greek translation than from the Hebrew original from which it was derived?

Clivedurdle · 10-04-2007, 09:04 AM

http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=216161

Quote:

Church of Tarsus

spin · 10-04-2007, 09:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dog-on

If one seriously studied the Septuagint (sp?), could one develop a certain knowledge of Judaism from it? Would one also betray his source of such knowledge when certain interpretations fell more in-line with this Greek translation than from the Hebrew original from which it was derived?

Just think of the virgin birth, Isa 7:14.

spin

Clivedurdle · 10-04-2007, 09:26 AM

This afternoon I have just seen a Muslim young man and woman eating lunch together in a Park - this is Ramadan.

There is and never has been a uniformity of practice of any religion anywhere.

Paul obviously has huge influences from the belief in "the true gods" - as Gore Vidal has Julian putting it, and "the true faith" in comparison to

"But the Galileans are wrong."

Amedeo · 10-04-2007, 01:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by judge

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

Can we clearly define the terms Christ and Messiah?

How are they used in the new testament and later writings?

Are they separate ideas that have become entangled?

Is Jesus a messiah or a christ?

An interesting verse to consider is John 1:41

The first thing Andrew did was to find his brother Simon and tell him, "We have found the Messiah" (that is, the Christ).

ευρισκει ουτος πρωτον τον αδελφον τον ιδιον Σιμωνα και λεγει αυτω, Ευρηκαμεν τον Μεσσιαν ο εστιν μεθερμηνευομενον Χριστος

Here the greek text includes an explanation that the messiah is the christ.

...and said to him, "We have found the Messiah, which is translated Christ."

Christos = past participle (used as an adjective or as a noun) of Chrio^, which = I pat lightly; I spread/palm; I plaster. So, "christos" = the palmED/anointED.

Chrisis = the act of spreading/palming (or of anointing); etc.

Chrisma, -atos = unction, ointment,....

The god-impregnated Miriam was told to name her son Immanuel, but, in another account, she called him Jesus. Anyway, it is the son of God that is referred to as being the Christ (the anointed one, the messiah), but there is no episode in which Jesus was actually anointed. (During his life, his feet were anointed; his corpse was anointed; but he was never anointed king.) His attribute as the Christ comes from biblical reminiscences, or prophesies, about the messiah.

On the other hand, YEshua bar Yoseph [not an ImmanuEL] was king by blood, as he was the son of Joseph in the lineage of King David. So, in Christrianity, they speak of Jesus king, not Jesus the Christ. (But just as there is a Biblical confusion of El and Yeh/Yoh/Yah, so there is a confusion betwenn the Basileos and the Christos, which goes back to the different fatherhoods of Jesus.)

Two documentary Gods, and two documentary Jesuses -- for those who can read.

aa5874 · 10-04-2007, 02:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa587

Your statement cannot be verified. The authors of the NT are unknown.

Quote:

Originally Posted by No Robots

Now all the writers both of the Old Testament and the New were Hebrews: therefore, a knowledge of the Hebrew language is before all things necessary, not only for the comprehension of the Old Testament, which was written in that tongue, but also of the New: for although the latter was published in other languages, yet its characteristics are Hebrew.--Spinoza, TTP, Chap. 7

You have compounded the problem. The authors of the NT are unknown, it cannot be verified if these so-called authors used ghost writers or if they read the Septuagint in combination with the writings of Josephus or Philo and then fabricated a Christ.

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10-04-2007, 08:19 AM	#102
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	Please update your bookmarks for the Journal of Higher Criticism Citizens of Heaven: Philippians 3:2-21 as a Deutero-Pauline Passage

10-04-2007, 08:55 AM	#105
dog-on Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 3,397	If one seriously studied the Septuagint (sp?), could one develop a certain knowledge of Judaism from it? Would one also betray his source of such knowledge when certain interpretations fell more in-line with this Greek translation than from the Hebrew original from which it was derived?

10-04-2007, 09:26 AM	#108
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	This afternoon I have just seen a Muslim young man and woman eating lunch together in a Park - this is Ramadan. There is and never has been a uniformity of practice of any religion anywhere. Paul obviously has huge influences from the belief in "the true gods" - as Gore Vidal has Julian putting it, and "the true faith" in comparison to "But the Galileans are wrong."

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