Årçhai

I don't think we need to know objectively. At some point it's going to come down to faith; do we believe what it says, or not?

I agree; there was a time where I didn't start with any commitments in any direction. Now that it's years later, I have a direction. If I'm to believe the entire book to be the infallible, inspired word of God. Then I've got no other option than to believe it complete and absolute truth.

Amaleq13

I think so but, cheer up, the good news is you'll eventually want to die if you keep up your efforts! :thumbs:

Amaleq13

Or subjective judgment. Not everyone considers "faith" a reliable basis for conclusions.

The rest of us have to muddle through the evidence to determine what we find to be credible.

aa5874

But based on the way religious doctrines are propagated around the world, most people are already committed to or have accepted one direction. Many people either have to be deconverted or reject the maunstream direction, sometimes without any real credible reason.

So, whether a person has a commitment to any direction, the final outcome is always based on the way the person interprets the information under review.

You claim there are other options other than history and fiction that can account for the tradition in the new testament, but you never identified the options by name. If the NT does not represent history or fiction, what are the other options?

And with respect to tradition in the new testament, of which century is this tradition and does the new testament truthfully represent any tradition?

For example, the birth of Jesus, as recorded by gLuke, what options other that history or fiction do we have, and what tradition does this birth of Jesus represent?

It cannot be always true that it is inappropiate to assume what is unknown, Achilles, Apollo and Hercules are unknown and assumed to be fiction. Certainly, making the same assumption for the Jesus, his disciples and Paul, that they are fiction, cannot be inappropiate, it is just reasonable based on the preponderance of evidence.

spamandham

Being new here, you may not be aware of how BC&H works (I'm still trying to figure it myself after nearly 4 years). Basically, the standard stories and histories handed down by the church are summarily dismissed, as are arguments from faith.

We are attempting to muddle through the evidence setting aside preconceptions.

That being the case, is there any textual evidence that a short time period was involved (I assume short to mean no more than about a 20 year time span).

spin

The third option is to put it on hold until you can answer it, if you ever can. You talk about what you can; that way you'll make fewer mistakes.

Looking from the inside means that you can never actually see what you are in. You have no way of knowing anything that you have come to believe. Once again you cannot distinguish yourself from those suffering from delusions.

If you are inerrantist, you have a lot of kludging to do to allow you to maintain a straight face. At least Liberal christians don't need to commit such self-abuse.


spin

aa5874

I just found an interesting piece of information from John Chrysostom, writing around the end of the 4th century, on his "Homily on the Acts of the Apostles"

Homily 1 Acts of the Apostles How can Acts of the Apostles, claimed to be written in the 1st century, by a follower of the apostle Paul, be so little known, even to the point where it is not known to exist?

Is it possible that only Irenaeus, Tertullian and Eusebius knew of the Acts of the Apostles before John Chrysostom?

Ben C Smith

No.

Ben.

DevilsAdvocate

No reason to argue it...Look it up...
But among knowledgeable christians this is a well known event. Not knowing about is displays a lack of knowledge about the texts.


From the NIV...online

[The Council at Jerusalem
Acts 15
1Some men came down from Judea to Antioch and were teaching the brothers: "Unless you are circumcised, according to the custom taught by Moses, you cannot be saved." 2This brought Paul and Barnabas into sharp dispute and debate with them. So Paul and Barnabas were appointed, along with some other believers, to go up to Jerusalem to see the apostles and elders about this question. 3The church sent them on their way, and as they traveled through Phoenicia and Samaria, they told how the Gentiles had been converted. This news made all the brothers very glad. 4When they came to Jerusalem, they were welcomed by the church and the apostles and elders, to whom they reported everything God had done through them.
5Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, "The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to obey the law of Moses."

6The apostles and elders met to consider this question. 7After much discussion, Peter got up and addressed them: "Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe. 8God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us. 9He made no distinction between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith. 10Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of the disciples a yoke that neither we nor our fathers have been able to bear? 11No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are."

12The whole assembly became silent as they listened to Barnabas and Paul telling about the miraculous signs and wonders God had done among the Gentiles through them. 13When they finished, James spoke up: "Brothers, listen to me. 14Simon[a] has described to us how God at first showed his concern by taking from the Gentiles a people for himself. 15The words of the prophets are in agreement with this, as it is written:
16" 'After this I will return
and rebuild David's fallen tent.
Its ruins I will rebuild,
and I will restore it,
17that the remnant of men may seek the Lord,
and all the Gentiles who bear my name,
says the Lord, who does these things'[b]
18that have been known for ages.[c]

19"It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God. 20Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood. 21For Moses has been preached in every city from the earliest times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath."

The Council's Letter to Gentile Believers
22Then the apostles and elders, with the whole church, decided to choose some of their own men and send them to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas. They chose Judas (called Barsabbas) and Silas, two men who were leaders among the brothers. 23With them they sent the following letter: The apostles and elders, your brothers, To the Gentile believers in Antioch, Syria and Cilicia: Greetings. 24We have heard that some went out from us without our authorization and disturbed you, troubling your minds by what they said. 25So we all agreed to choose some men and send them to you with our dear friends Barnabas and Paul— 26men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. 27Therefore we are sending Judas and Silas to confirm by word of mouth what we are writing. 28It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us not to burden you with anything beyond the following requirements: 29You are to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality. You will do well to avoid these things. Farewell.
30The men were sent off and went down to Antioch, where they gathered the church together and delivered the letter. 31The people read it and were glad for its encouraging message. 32Judas and Silas, who themselves were prophets, said much to encourage and strengthen the brothers. 33After spending some time there, they were sent off by the brothers with the blessing of peace to return to those who had sent them.[d] 35But Paul and Barnabas remained in Antioch, where they and many others taught and preached the word of the Lord.

Ben C Smith

I am quite aware of Acts 15. Where in Acts 15 does Paul come into conflict with the pillars (James, John, Peter or Cephas) or with any apostles? Peter and James agree with Paul in that chapter.

Ben.