Chili

I like physical Mark on this who tells us that a worm is the cause of pain in a fire everlasting.

One must remember here that when Jesus brought heaven to earth hell came crashing down with it in a world where a pair of opposites cannot be conceived to exist without the other, from which follows that the eternal bliss in heaven must necessarily be countered by the eternal pain endured in the absense of bliss while in the vision of that bliss.

To be sure, if the fire is not a physical fire the worm is also not a physical worm while the image of both is real.

Chili

. . . after all, if a worm can survive in that fire so can we, with now the worm representing the continuous pain of having knowledge of God without having intimacy with God (Galations 5:4).

A clear image of this separation in distance is presented in "A Strange Manuscript Found in a Copper Cylinder" by James Mille, I think it is.

The above is a "frame novel" that takes place in purgatory, as we call it, and from there heaven is clearly visible (as you can well imagine), and hence the turmoil in Galilee and charismatic gatherings.

rhutchin

Jesus seems to take the image of the worm from Isaiah 66:

For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain. And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD. And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh. (Isaiah 66:22-24)

The worm refers to a characteristic about the men that have transgressed against [God].

The essential meaning is that the person who sins against God does not die but lives forever in hell. Mark has "their worm" suggesting that the worm is not the cause of pain but that which is in pain. Perhaps a reference to the person's mind or conscience.

Chili

Exactly! . . . to have faith in Jesus while yet remain torn in sin.

I call them Jesus worshipers who have faith in Jesus and [still] observe the law whereby they continue to stand convicted as sinner. Hence, "saved sinners" they are and will often boast about their sin and the fact that Jesus died for their sin. For them it becomes a life of slavery in sin while still having a clear vision of their own salvation.

In the bible they are identified in many places but I would just call them Baptists or Billy Grahamites of sort who will claim that one must be born again and show evidence of the spirit, and that, they boast, excludes Catholics!

So yes, then, I agree that they do not die but live forever in hell with eternity being a state of mind wherein we are the continuity of infinity . . . wherefore hell is God ordained as the wrath of God measured unto the fornicator (I call them) by the strenght of the wine they drank in the cup of his anger (Rev.14:10). Please pay attention to verse 12 where they are identified and verse 13 is where they are placed opposite to those who have died in the Lord by [as much as] taking Jesus from the cross and placing themselves upon it.

To be set free from sin entails an inward journey to 'set the captives free' (as they call it), but in reality is to come to understand your own origen (lineage) for up to 1000 years and so back to God where liberty is found (= beyond our human nature).

Religion is nice and religion can be fun but it should never be allowed to tamper with the inner sanctum or holy of holies of human beings if that warps their mind for the rest of their life.

Please note that Matthews Jesus goes back to Galilee instead of the New Jerusalem to make it clear that the great commision is not of God but feeds the fire of hell that is alive and well in America today.

Chili

Of course the worm is the pain because wings on a worm does not make a good butterfly because the old shitbag is still attached (. . . 'and warship building we will go').

Remember here that pain is an illusion in heaven which now sustains them in verse 12 as righteousness earned that they will never know to be filthy rags until they get there. Just ask Peter in Rome who knows them all whether they come from two by two's, four by four's or evangelistic rallies where they were sucked in by the epideictic speech of the orator (opposite to eristic) who's snow-job it is to secure a conclusion at all cost: engagement, is what he wants, wherein we are asked to become the spurious minor when the oratory culminates in the contemplative so that we can enter.