Johnnyboy

Hey guys,

I have another question for you. The prophecy of the so called "suffering servant" is probably the most citied one (by apologists), in order to prove that jesus is the messiah. I have read trough the topics about this passage, but I did not find any clear statement about it. What is your opinioin about that passage? To what does it reffer? And why do you think it isnt about jesus? Don't get me wrong, I am not a fundie at all, but I am just not good informed about it.


Greetings from Heidelberg.

Johnnyboy

Don't make my cry, folks.

Jack the Bodiless

This article covers the Isaiah 53 "prophecy" (scroll down to (VI) The Suffering Servant).

Isaiah 53 clearly doesn't refer to Jesus. Perhaps the most obvious problem is 53:10, ""the Lord chose to crush him by disease, that if he made himself an offering for guilt, he might see offspring and have long life". Jesus had no disease, no offspring, and a short life.

John Kesler

The key to discovering the servant's identity is to read more than just the handful of verses that apologists isolate. Start back in chapter 41 and the servant is clearly identified in vv 8-9:

Continue reading all the way through chapter 53, noticing all the references to Yahweh's servant, Israel.

Jayrok

A note to add to the other posts is the theme for the book of Isaiah. In various chapters of Isaiah, the servant is specifically named as Israel.

Beginning with Isaiah 1, you can see the theme that carries throughout the book. God is troubled with Israel:

Hear, O heavens! Listen, O earth!
For the LORD has spoken:
"I reared children and brought them up,
but they have rebelled against me.
3 The ox knows his master,
the donkey his owner's manger,
but Israel does not know,
my people do not understand."

4 Ah, sinful nation,
a people loaded with guilt,
a brood of evildoers,
children given to corruption!
They have forsaken the LORD;
they have spurned the Holy One of Israel
and turned their backs on him.
5 Why should you be beaten anymore?
Why do you persist in rebellion?
Your whole head is injured,
your whole heart afflicted.

6 From the sole of your foot to the top of your head
there is no soundness—
only wounds and welts
and open sores,
not cleansed or bandaged
or soothed with oil.


Isaiah is writing figuratively, of course, but he is talking about the nation of Israel, and how they are punished by God because they turned their back on him. They were invaded, enslaved, exiled, etc.. Isaiah says this is because the evil they have done. It is similar to people thinking God is punishing them with a hurricane because of evil doing. Fact is, the Hebrews got their butts kicked and he is writing excuses.


Anyway, you can see in verse 6 where it says "From the sole of your foot to the top of your head there is no soundness— only wounds and welts and open sores". Doesn't this sound familiar?

It should. Isaiah 53 is describing the same thing. The nation of Israel is figuratively being punished by God by the welts and open sores from the head to the feet. The literal meaning is that Israel was conquered and scattered into exile.

But it isn't about Jesus... unless.. Jesus could be a figurative fulfillment of the nation of Israel. Jesus was beaten, killed and redeemed by God. Israel was beaten and killed (exiled) and they still hope to be redeemed by God.

But the suffering servant in Isaiah 53 is the same person being beaten in Isaiah 1.. and that is the nation of Israel itself. It is being beaten because it turned its back on God. Isaiah often refers to the nation as "he" and the city of Jerusalem as "she".

bfniii

the word disease does not exist in verse 10.

bfniii

God has more than one servant. therefore, the servant mentioned in 41:8 is not necessarily the same one mentioned in 53 nor did you show such a connection.



notice the difference in pronoun; "you" in 41, "he" in 53. the suffering servant, even when superficially referred to as israel, is actually referring to the messiah on a deeper, symbolic level. there are many such references all throughout the OT.

mikem

Not so. The Messiah was never conflated with the suffering servant. As has been pointed out already the passage refers to the nation as a whole, which was to be purified through suffering, and as a result of which a remnant would be blessed. Isaiah 9: 5 - 10 is more appropriate as a description of the Messiah. The expected Messiah expected was to be a regal figure, a descendent of King David, who would restore the fortunes of the nation and make it the centre of world rule.

The "deeper symbolic" reference to a Messiah is one that has been read back into the passage by later Xtian apologists. Since Jesus did not fit the Messianic type, his role was reinterpreted in the light of the servant passages in Isaiah, so as to make it appear that his death was not an unmitigated disaster for his fledgeling movement.

John Kesler

The burden is not on me to "show such a connection"; it is upon you to show that Isaiah, who consistently referred to Israel as Yahweh's servant, suddenly changed the servant's identity to Jesus of Nazareth.


So your argument is that the use of the pronoun "he" instead of "you" means that the servant is Jesus, not Israel? Maybe you should flip a page in your Bible to Isaiah 42:

Do you still want to argue that the servant, even when referred to with male pronouns, was Jesus of Nazareth?

Half-Life

It is quite funny how atheists say you need to read the chapters in full context rather than citing a few sentences like apologists do. Well, why do the atheists only post the single sentences when they give their list of contradictions? Why not take the full chapter in context to see there is no contradiction?