Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Sheshbazzar · 01-28-2009, 03:04 PM

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Originally Posted by DLH

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Originally Posted by vid

While researching about birth date of Jesus, I have run upon few claims that January 6th tradition is likely derived by usual exact-9-months gestation from April 6th, which is both conception and death of Jesus (supposedly, it was common belief in ancients that godmen are born and die on the same day). They also speculated April 6th is derived from calculation Pesah date around year 30-33 AD.

However, so far I was unable to find any direct ancient evidence for regarding April 6th as either conception or crossing date of Jesus.

Do you happen to know about any such mention in ancient literature? I remember article claiming there is some, but without any references.

Jesus was born in the month of Ethanim (September - October) of 2 B.C.E. Most likely in the first week of October. He was born about 6 months after his cousin John, during the rule of Roman Emperor Caesar Augustus (31 B.C.E. - 14 C.E.) and the Syrian governorship of Quirinius and toward the close of the reign of Herod the Great over Judea. (Matthew 2:1, 13, 20-22 / Luke :1:24-31, 36 / 2:1, 2, 7)

The Greek term in "And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us" (John 1:14) literally "tented" or "tabernacled" amongst us would also suggest that it be understood that the birth took place during the Feast of Tabernacles, with circumcision being performed on the eighth day of the Feast. (Lev 23:34-36, Luke 1:59)
It is a meme appearing in many places in the Bible, look up "tabernacle" and "dwelt". There is an evident intent by the NT authors to connect the birth to the Feast of Tabernacles to instill both with greater significance.

Jeffrey Gibson · 01-28-2009, 03:10 PM

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Originally Posted by vid

I already admitted error accepting and repeating same-day claim without evidence, and I said I will go to either seek some evidence for those claims, or stop using them.

As for gods dying - Osiris, for example. (some reference here, bet you can find more easily). Or Adonis, killed by wild boar (wikipedia lists couple of references).

But note that these are not beings who were once without bodies or "human" features or had no need to be born in order to exist. They are beings who in order to exist have to be born and have bodies and to grow.

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And is this what early Christians actually thought Jesus was? Does Mark? Does Luke or Matthew?

In my opinion partly yes, at least to extent that they agreed god can be born of woman (Luke and Matthew), can have body, walk the earth, eat, drink, and at least his physical part can die (all of them).

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Anyway, what is your point? I don't see where are you heading with these questions.

I should have thought it was obvious. If there were no god men who died on the same date they were born, then the use of thisclaim that there were to show that Jesus is just another of these alleged god men, or that the stores of his birth and death were framed with reference to them, is as without warrant as it is bogus. And if Jesus was not thought to be a "god man" in the way that Pagans allegedly (but did not) think gods, let alone god-men were and/or what it was that made gods into god-men, then again, the claim that early Christians based their Jesus on these putative god men, let alone that they were saying he was one of them, is just ridiculous.

Now perhaps you'll let us know what the sources where in which you found the claim that the idea that god-men died on the date they were born was "a common one".

Jeffrey

vid · 01-28-2009, 04:38 PM

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the claim that early Christians based their Jesus on these putative god men, let alone that they were saying he was one of them, is just ridiculous.

Careful here - I didn't claim Jesus persona was anyhow based on these other gods. I only cited hypothesis claiming that dating of jesus' birth was based on belief that gods are born and die on same date, which was supposedly norm at the times.

I think you make too big issue of word "godmen". I could have just as well said "gods". I just find it weird for a god in today's more deistic understanding to be born and especially to die, so I used word godmen to separate "fleshy" gods from gods as we understand them today. I hope this explains whatever bothers you about my use of that word.

And yes, I am aware that contemporary view of Jesus' and his bodily death was different from view of Osiris death some centuries ago.

Since you asked where I found such claims: one is in Andrew Criddle's blogpost linked in this topic. Another is here.

I know these won't fit the "god-man" definition you expect, but I hope I already explained why I used that word enough. That really is way off topic of this thread.

Jeffrey Gibson · 01-28-2009, 05:03 PM

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Originally Posted by vid

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the claim that early Christians based their Jesus on these putative god men, let alone that they were saying he was one of them, is just ridiculous.

Careful here - I didn't claim Jesus persona was anyhow based on these other gods. I only cited hypothesis claiming that dating of jesus' birth was based on belief that gods are born and die on same date, which was supposedly norm at the times.

OK. But why were those who were making these claims doing so?

And what are the places where you found the claim that there was a widespread belief in (now) gods being born and dying on the same date being made?

Jeffrey

Petergdi · 01-28-2009, 06:39 PM

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Originally Posted by Jeffrey Gibson

Leaving aside the question of what "god-men" are, let alone whether early Christians thought of Jesus as one of these (as of yet undefined) beings, may I ask which "god men" were belived to have died on the same day they were born?

And where may we find attestation in primary sources to this "belief" as actually being a "common" one?

Jeffrey

The word "godman" could be simply a translation of theos-aner, but in view of the fact that I frequently encounter the term in antichristian polemic and hardly ever in theological discussions by Christians - I think it is safe to say that it is normally intended to be offensive. I do not think that vid means it that way, but it does usually seem to be intended to offend rather than to actually describe Chistian beliefs about Jesus.

There seems to have been a belief that Moses was born and died on the 7th of Adar and that King David was born and died on Shavuot. Both beliefs seems to be pretty well represented on modern Jewish websites. I'm not very good at looking things up in the Talmud, and I haven't yet chased down where these beliefs come from.

Peter

vid · 01-29-2009, 04:42 AM

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And what are the places where you found the claim that there was a widespread belief in (now) gods being born and dying on the same date being made?

I mentioned two of them in my previous post (the one you was responding to):

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Originally Posted by vid

Since you asked where I found such claims: one is in Andrew Criddle's blogpost linked in this topic. Another is here.

andrewcriddle · 01-29-2009, 02:18 PM

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Originally Posted by vid

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Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

My blogpost epiphany-and-polycarp may be relevant.

Thanks, helpful indeed. Some questions on your blogpost:

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IE the underlying claim is probably that the Passion and birth of Christ occurred on the same day of the year (See Clement of Alexandria Stromateis book 1 chapter 21).

Where does Clement mention such claim in Stromata chapter 21? I couldn't find it (but I admit I couldn't read it entire, only part that contains dates. Reading the rest, I lose track almost instantly.

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And they say that it was the fifteenth year of Tiberius Caesar, the fifteenth day of the month Tubi; and some that it was the eleventh of the same month, And treating of His passion, with very great accuracy, some say that it took place in the sixteenth year of Tiberius, on the twenty-fifth of Phamenoth; and others the twenty-fifth of Pharmuthi and others say that on the nineteenth of Pharmuthi the Saviour suffered. Further, others say that He was born on the twenty-fourth or twenty-fifth of Pharmuthi

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Originally Posted by vid

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combined with Western claims of his death on March the 25th (eg by Hippolytus)

Where does Hippolytus say that? I remember that some of manuscripts of his Commentary of Daniel mention 25th december birth, other mention 2nd april. This would be argument for 25th december.

I think the date of 25th March for the passion is given in the Easter Table and the Commentary on Daniel 4:23 neither is online and I can't immediately verify this.

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Originally Posted by vid

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Thomas Talley in The Origins of the Liturgical Year argues that Christmas and Epiphany originate in earlier beliefs that Christ was born on the same day of the year as that of his death or resurrection

Would you be kind enough to recap his arguments?

I could expand a little on Talley's claims. I can't from memory give his detailed arguments.

Andrew Criddle

Lugubert · 01-29-2009, 03:43 PM

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Originally Posted by vid

January 6th tradition

This is a new one for me, but it seems that everybody posting knows of it. Is this tradition a local or sectarian thing, or randomly distributed? The one and only date I've heard of is Yule day.

vid · 01-30-2009, 08:29 AM

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I think the date of 25th March for the passion is given in the Easter Table and the Commentary on Daniel 4:23 neither is online and I can't immediately verify this.

Greek version from Ben C. Smith: http://www.textexcavation.com/docume...usondaniel.pdf

English translation in ANF5: http://www.ewtn.com/library/PATRISTC/anf5-3.txt

Dunno about Easter table.

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This is a new one for me, but it seems that everybody posting knows of it. Is this tradition a local or sectarian thing, or randomly distributed? The one and only date I've heard of is Yule day.

It is common and still valid in eastern christianity (Ukraine, Russia, ...)

andrewcriddle · 01-30-2009, 01:09 PM

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Originally Posted by vid

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I think the date of 25th March for the passion is given in the Easter Table and the Commentary on Daniel 4:23 neither is online and I can't immediately verify this.

Greek version from Ben C. Smith: http://www.textexcavation.com/docume...usondaniel.pdf

English translation in ANF5: http://www.ewtn.com/library/PATRISTC/anf5-3.txt

Dunno about Easter table.

The English translation is from an incomplete manuscript or manuscripts. It does not contain the relevant passage. More of the commentary has been recovered (and is to be found as you say in Ben's pdf) but it is not online in a modren language translation.

The Hippolytus Statue has an Easter table inscribed on it. IIUC this contains the date of the crucifixion.

Andrew Criddle

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