Freethought & Rationalism Archive

grendel prime · 08-10-2004, 11:11 AM

This seems pretty far from OP, but:

do you hold that Christ did not in fact have to die in order for man to be redeemed? that seems to contradict the Pauline doctrine of redemption: that Adam is the cause of man's imperfection and Christ's sacrifice is his redemption. You know, cleansed by the blood of the lamb and all...

so Paine thinks that a religion that rights man's imperfection (or prescribed inperfection) by killing jesus to be absurd, and i'd have to agree.

inquisitive01 · 08-10-2004, 04:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by grendel prime

This seems pretty far from OP, but:

do you hold that Christ did not in fact have to die in order for man to be redeemed? that seems to contradict the Pauline doctrine of redemption: that Adam is the cause of man's imperfection and Christ's sacrifice is his redemption. You know, cleansed by the blood of the lamb and all...

so Paine thinks that a religion that rights man's imperfection (or prescribed inperfection) by killing jesus to be absurd, and i'd have to agree.

Refer to I Peter, Chapter 1.

Godfather · 08-10-2004, 05:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by inquisitive01

Okay, this is for anyone. IF 25 people happened to see a message on the moon, say, lasting for 15 minutes, that CLEARLY said "God is with you always" (not just some atmospheric, crater effect of something), and then they advertised this to the other 6 billion or so people on the planet, how many would truly believe this word of mouth, EVEN IF pictures (not faked pictures) were taken that CLEARLY showed this message? I'll tell you. Many people (likely the majority) would come to the conclusions/reasons such as follows:

1). Atmospheric effect.
2). The 25 people must have had previous mental problems.
3). They must be missing something in those pictures (i.e., they MUST be fake and this MUST be a hoax).

Etc., etc.

In short, I personally don't think it would matter one bit whether what was/is seen is from Bible times OR from today.

I think everyone should think really hard about this for a second. Especially those who are defending the Bible and all that goes with it. You read a lot of stories in the Bible about people who did extraordinary things, who had their complete faith in God. The new testament calls for complete faith in Christ for our eternal salvation. I have heard faith defined as something you believe without proof of it. This definition of faith is very contradictory with the faith being described in the Bible. Let me explain why.
All of those people in the Bible that i just mentioned had faith for a reason. They all saw a burning bush, they heard God speak directly to them, they had visions, they saw amazing miracles, even the least of them saw people speak in languages they had never learned.
Today we have none of that. We have nothing to base that faith on. All we have is heritage, a book that is easily proven historically innacurrate and contradictive, and the testimony of some people who say their lives have been changed. Sadly every religion has this. Some will say that we don't have the miracles and stuff because we have God's word. Sorry, that just doesn't cut it. It is not too much to ask for letters on the moon, everyone else had it. Although every mythical religion had stuff like that happen, which makes christianity no different.

Amaleq13 · 08-10-2004, 05:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by inquisitive01

Yet MUCH, MUCH LESS has to happen to get people to meet in a bar on a Friday or Saturday (just chose those days since they occur during the "weekend"), attend a major sporting event, etc.
We don't question this anywhere near as much, though.

There would appear to be no good reason to question such behavior. In addition, it doesn't seem to be at all analogous to convincing people to believe that the deity (or deities) described in the Bible is(are) real and deserved to be worshipped.

inquisitive01 · 08-10-2004, 06:45 PM

QUOTE: "Sorry, that just doesn't cut it."
Well, I'm sorry if God's word doesn't cut it for YOU. The arrogance of some people (i.e., "I can solve the mysteries of the Bible") doesn't cut it for me.

Amaleq13, what is not questioned (as much as the info in the Bible and/or God is questioned) is the fact that it takes MUCH, MUCH LESS for "religious" observation of "bar-hopping," etc., to occur. You may or may not have to consult a dictionary for my meaning of "religious" in that last sentence.

Angrillori · 08-10-2004, 06:56 PM

You've got to be kidding.

I don't think anyone's going to apologize for having a standard of rationality higher than believing in third hand accounts of bronze age goat herders who couldn't even be bothered to do any historical, geographical, and scientific fact checking before writing what they wanted us to believe was the word of god.

If you bothered to apply the same standard to the bible that you apply to the Upansihads, the Qu'ran, the Baghivad Gita, the writings of Confucius, the Tao-te-Ching, or even The Night Before Christmas, then you wouldn't be in the position you're in.

Tell us why you dismiss the countless other gods that humanity has dreamed up, and we'll tell you why we dismiss yours.

Angrillori · 08-10-2004, 06:59 PM

Or, more succinctly:

Well, I'm sorry if God's word doesn't cut it for YOU. The arrogance of some people (i.e., "I can solve the mysteries of the Qu'ran") doesn't cut it for me.

Well, I'm sorry if God's word doesn't cut it for YOU. The arrogance of some people (i.e., "I can solve the mysteries of the Baghivad Gita") doesn't cut it for me.

Well, I'm sorry if God's word doesn't cut it for YOU. The arrogance of some people (i.e., "I can solve the mysteries of the Tao te Ching") doesn't cut it for me.

inquisitive01 · 08-10-2004, 07:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Angrillori

You've got to be kidding.

I don't think anyone's going to apologize for having a standard of rationality higher than believing in third hand accounts of bronze age goat herders who couldn't even be bothered to do any historical, geographical, and scientific fact checking before writing what they wanted us to believe was the word of god.

If you bothered to apply the same standard to the bible that you apply to the Upansihads, the Qu'ran, the Baghivad Gita, the writings of Confucius, the Tao-te-Ching, or even The Night Before Christmas, then you wouldn't be in the position you're in.

Tell us why you dismiss the countless other gods that humanity has dreamed up, and we'll tell you why we dismiss yours.

II Timothy 3:7 (or 3:1-7) - "Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth."

Toto · 08-10-2004, 07:47 PM

Please stay on topic and with some semblance of carrying on a discussion, as opposed to slinging insults or scripture.

Or we can close this thread.

Godfather · 08-10-2004, 09:01 PM

How come the Bible says that you can know that you have eternal life, but expects blind faith? Like I said, all of the Biblical characters saw things that would give someone a real reason to believe. We don't have that. You can quote scripture all day long, but that is all you have. You have no reason to believe that it is inerrant, no reason to believe that is has any more significance than the sacred scriptures of any other religion. Just think about what you are standing up for, just because you were raised a certain way does not mean that you have to submit yourself to it. Think for yourself. You cannot alter reality. If God doesn't exist then he doesn't exist. If Jesus is not the saviour of mankind no amount of believing is going to make him that. Don't hold on to that crutch your whole life.

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08-10-2004, 11:11 AM	#31
grendel prime Regular Member Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Tuscaloosa, AL Posts: 104	This seems pretty far from OP, but: do you hold that Christ did not in fact have to die in order for man to be redeemed? that seems to contradict the Pauline doctrine of redemption: that Adam is the cause of man's imperfection and Christ's sacrifice is his redemption. You know, cleansed by the blood of the lamb and all... so Paine thinks that a religion that rights man's imperfection (or prescribed inperfection) by killing jesus to be absurd, and i'd have to agree.

08-10-2004, 06:45 PM	#35
inquisitive01 Banned Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: East U.S.A. Posts: 883	QUOTE: "Sorry, that just doesn't cut it." Well, I'm sorry if God's word doesn't cut it for YOU. The arrogance of some people (i.e., "I can solve the mysteries of the Bible") doesn't cut it for me. Amaleq13, what is not questioned (as much as the info in the Bible and/or God is questioned) is the fact that it takes MUCH, MUCH LESS for "religious" observation of "bar-hopping," etc., to occur. You may or may not have to consult a dictionary for my meaning of "religious" in that last sentence.

08-10-2004, 06:56 PM	#36
Angrillori Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: A world less bright without WinAce. Posts: 7,482	You've got to be kidding. I don't think anyone's going to apologize for having a standard of rationality higher than believing in third hand accounts of bronze age goat herders who couldn't even be bothered to do any historical, geographical, and scientific fact checking before writing what they wanted us to believe was the word of god. If you bothered to apply the same standard to the bible that you apply to the Upansihads, the Qu'ran, the Baghivad Gita, the writings of Confucius, the Tao-te-Ching, or even The Night Before Christmas, then you wouldn't be in the position you're in. Tell us why you dismiss the countless other gods that humanity has dreamed up, and we'll tell you why we dismiss yours.

08-10-2004, 06:59 PM	#37
Angrillori Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: A world less bright without WinAce. Posts: 7,482	Or, more succinctly: Well, I'm sorry if God's word doesn't cut it for YOU. The arrogance of some people (i.e., "I can solve the mysteries of the Qu'ran") doesn't cut it for me. Well, I'm sorry if God's word doesn't cut it for YOU. The arrogance of some people (i.e., "I can solve the mysteries of the Baghivad Gita") doesn't cut it for me. Well, I'm sorry if God's word doesn't cut it for YOU. The arrogance of some people (i.e., "I can solve the mysteries of the Tao te Ching") doesn't cut it for me.

08-10-2004, 07:47 PM	#39
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	Please stay on topic and with some semblance of carrying on a discussion, as opposed to slinging insults or scripture. Or we can close this thread.

08-10-2004, 09:01 PM	#40
Godfather Regular Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Hurricane Central. Posts: 158	How come the Bible says that you can know that you have eternal life, but expects blind faith? Like I said, all of the Biblical characters saw things that would give someone a real reason to believe. We don't have that. You can quote scripture all day long, but that is all you have. You have no reason to believe that it is inerrant, no reason to believe that is has any more significance than the sacred scriptures of any other religion. Just think about what you are standing up for, just because you were raised a certain way does not mean that you have to submit yourself to it. Think for yourself. You cannot alter reality. If God doesn't exist then he doesn't exist. If Jesus is not the saviour of mankind no amount of believing is going to make him that. Don't hold on to that crutch your whole life.

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