Tigers!

Are you implying that if we have a subjective morality then killing would stop? How would you test such hypothesis?

Tigers!

I thought the connection was so obvious I said nothing about it.

Vorkosigan

Look at history and human behavior! When was the last time you saw a headline that read "Freethinkers Association of Austin attacks North Texas Church of Freethought; six dead"? But headlines like "Communists arrest Christians" or "Muslims Bomb Christian Churches" or "Evangelicals, Catholics, Clash in Brazil" are so common as to be considered normal. Relativists don't wax each other in genocidal quantities. Only absolutists of Communist, Christian, Islamic, Fascist, or similar beliefs do. Behind every claim to absolute morals is a sword itching to come out.

Vorkosigan

Vicki

This is what I find astounding. He actually says, "Hang on a moment, just going around liquidating people is wrong and evil."

He's read the Bible, right?!

Follow by example?

Sauron

Implying that these were "atheist" killings merely because the people were not christians -- and thus lacked this faulty moral compass that he alleges exists -- really doesn't work here. The evidence shows that those acting in Christ's name have committed unspeakable atrocities, and were also not bothered by this alleged moral compass. (Cue the sad music and the "no true Scotsman" argument).

Moreover -- unless someone explicitly kills:

a. in the name of a belief/ideology; or
b. to defend a belief/ideology;

then trying to characterize their acts as being extensions of that belief/ideology is simply dishonest. If I hire a christian plumber and he screws up the plumbing in my house, I dont' automatically assume his screw-up is traceable to his faith/ideology. I assume that he's probably incompetent, and would be incompetent regardless of his religion.

But then again, this is Bede - and he's well known around these parts. What he lacks in education or data, he strives mightily to make up for in assumptive hubris.

hatsoff

Taking either position would involve undue assumptions. This is all speculation.

Sauron

Either of *what* two positions?

hatsoff

These positions:
1) Christianity's existence and/or popularity throughout history has shortened general human life expectency--IE has caused a general increase in murder/war casualties/etc.
2) Christianity's existence and/or popularity throughout history has lengthened the general human life expectency--IE has caused a general decrease in murder/war casualties/etc.

We don't know which of the above are true. Bede's argument for the second position is flawed insofar as it is ultimately unconvincing. However, it is *not* implausible or unreasonable speculation--at least, not from what I remember when I read it the other day.

Djugashvillain

You say it is "ultimately unconvincing", which I agree with; however, not long ago you said that:

Are you saying it is not worth discussing? Or that all speculation is equally correct, regardless of factual accuracy and reason? Because by saying that his position is ultimately unconvincing contradicts this.

Steven Carr

I don't know if Americans believe that religion is a problem, but after the war, America made sure religion played a much smaller role in Japan.

I wonder why the USA did that.