Freethought & Rationalism Archive

primitivefuture · 09-18-2006, 10:35 AM

Please note that the Quran is relatively easy to memorize.

Malachi151 · 09-18-2006, 11:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by primitivefuture

1.) The life of Muhammad (pbuh) is more detailed that any other holy figure in history. Do you think Buddha was fictional?
2.) How can Muhammad (pbuh) be fictional if his tomb is in Medina?

Also, in Islam, no prophets would contradict each other. Muhammad (pbuh) does not contradict Jesus (pbuh), who doesn't contradict Moses (pbuh)

Peace.

You mean the centuires of made up stories that were written hundreds of years after Muhammad supposedly lived, based on no information, written in lands far away from any place he ever supposedly went, all of which contradict each other?

Yeah, good one....

That tomb is just another Shroud of Turin, or supposedly birthplace of Jesus, etc., just another fake relic to get the believers all excited.

Plus, some Muslims say he ascended bodily into heaven, "like Jesus".

You should read Quest for the Historical Muhammed:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quest_f...rical_Muhammed

I've heard Ibn Warraq speak as well, there is nothing called evidence that speaks to the existance of Muhammad.

See also:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhamma...ammad.27s_life

Quote:

When they were written, most biographical sources of Muhammad were written by Muslims and were recorded in writing centuries after his death. Only fragmentary references in non-Muslim historical records from the seventh century are available, and no inscriptions or archaeological remains survive from that time.

One of very few known non-Islamic contemporary accounts of this time and place, the Doctrina Iacobi, records a Judeo-Arab preacher whom it does not name proclaiming the advent of a Jewish Messiah, and states that the Jews and Arabs were allies against the Byzantines, which does not correspond with the Hadiths, and it also states that this Messiah's power was "diminished and torn asunder", which is almost entirely opposite to the history. Other people claiming to be Prophets appeared in the Mideastern world at the time of Muhammad, such as Musailama al-Kazzab or Aswad Ansi, who both claimed to be prophets and both led ultimately unsuccessful military campaigns, and it is possible that the unnamed Messiah figure relates to one of these.

The hadith are the written collection of the Arab oral traditions concerning Muhammad. The dates often given for Muhammad's life are 570-632 CE. The most authoritative hadiths in Sunni Islam are compiled in the "Sahih Bukhari", or "Sahih Muslim", while in Shia'ism more emphasis is placed on the "Usul al-Kafi".

The earliest biography of Muhammad known is a collection of hadith: the Sirah Rasul Allah or, the Life of the Apostle of God, by Ibn Ishaq, who was born about 717 and died in 767. He thus wrote his biography well over one hundred years after Muhammad died. He would not have been able to speak to any eyewitnesses, only to those who had heard their accounts, or accounts of their accounts. Ibn Ishaq's work is contained in fragments quoted in a compilation of anecdotes and traditions composed by Islamic historian Ibn Hisham (???-834) and al-Tabari (838-923).

Essentially, all that we have to go on about the life of Muhammad is a written some time in the 9th century, which claimes that it is based on a book writtein in the 8th century, but this 8th century book no longer exists.

The full details of this book, which is the most authoritative source for the life of Muhammad, contines a few sentences, with no significant description of the events of his supposed life.

All of the hadiths written about Muhammad came after this, and are based on..... thin air!!!! There is absolutely no source that they even could be based on, your only defense is to claim that they are divine revelation from god.

Muhammad is supposedly burried in a mosque that "he built" on the site of "his house", yet that style of building wasn't even around then or a part of Islamic tradition until after the Muslims conquored some later built Christian churches.

Islam is just built on a huge web of lies....

primitivefuture · 09-18-2006, 01:55 PM

Malachi:

Quote:

You mean the centuires of made up stories that were written hundreds of years after Muhammad supposedly lived, based on no information, written in lands far away from any place he ever supposedly went, all of which contradict each other?

Why do you adulterate this thread with your baseless posts? Please prove all this with primary sources.

Quote:

That tomb is just another Shroud of Turin, or supposedly birthplace of Jesus, etc., just another fake relic to get the believers all excited.

Thank you for the very factual analysis. Note the sarcasm. Get me proof.

[quote]

Quote:

Plus, some Muslims say he ascended bodily into heaven, "like Jesus".

Wrong.

You are probably referring to Muhammad's ascension to heaven in Jerusalem:
http://www.geocities.com/alummah2000/NightJourney.html
http://www.meem.freeuk.com/Miraaj.html

Quote:

You should read Quest for the Historical Muhammed:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quest_f...rical_Muhammed

I've heard Ibn Warraq speak as well, there is nothing called evidence that speaks to the existance of Muhammad.

Why would I learn about Islam from an apostate? His arguments have been extensively refuted by Muslim scholars. If I want to learn about Muhammad I’d refer to MUSLIM sources like the hadeeth. Ibn Warraq is just another twat who speaks goo goo gah gah. Do you learn about Atheism from Jeffrey Lang?

Quote:

See also:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhamma...ammad.27s_life

Since you don’t know anything about the credibility of the Hadeeth, let me enlighten you:

http://www.albalagh.net/qa/hadith_authenticity.shtml
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Hadith/
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamen...omparison.html

More info:

Quote:

All praise is due to Allaah, and peace and blessings of Allaah be upon his Last and Final Messenger, his pure family, his noble Companions, and all those who follow them with righteousness until the Day of Judgment.

We have undoubtedly sent down the Reminder(al-dhikr), and We will truly preserve it. Soorah al-Hijr:9

This article is a humble attempt to eradicate the misconceptions that many non-Muslims and Muslims possess about the second source of the Shariah (Islaamic jurisprudence) namely the Sunnah.

This article is by no means a comprehensive coverage of the Sunnah, but rather an introductory article dispelling the myths surrounding ahadeeth [pl. of hadeeth]. I will attempt to avoid several sections such as the command to follow the Messenger as this is discussed in great detail by Allaamah al-Albaani (May Allaah have mercy on him) in his treatise, the Status of the Sunnah in Islaam

<snipped for bandwidth

please consult this link: http://www.load-islam.com/artical_de...ection=Hadeeth

Ahadeeth myths

By : kadafi (www.islamicboard.com) >

And remember the words of the Prophet:

Fa-tooba lil-ghurabaa (tooba is for the Strangers)

Praise be to Allaah, The Lord of the Worlds.

Malachi,

Quote:

Essentially, all that we have to go on about the life of Muhammad is a written some time in the 9th century, which claimes that it is based on a book writtein in the 8th century, but this 8th century book no longer exists.

The full details of this book, which is the most authoritative source for the life of Muhammad, contines a few sentences, with no significant description of the events of his supposed life.

All of the hadiths written about Muhammad came after this, and are based on..... thin air!!!! There is absolutely no source that they even could be based on, your only defense is to claim that they are divine revelation from god.

Muhammad is supposedly burried in a mosque that "he built" on the site of "his house", yet that style of building wasn't even around then or a part of Islamic tradition until after the Muslims conquored some later built Christian churches.

Read above. Your arguments have already been blasted.

Quote:

Islam is just built on a huge web of lies.…

Nope, Islam is truth. You just like to deny it.

Deaf, dumb, and blind, they will not return (to the path). (Holy Quran 2:18 Yusuf Ali)

Peace

Clivedurdle · 09-18-2006, 02:08 PM

Quote:

Glastonbury is more than just an unusual landscape, though. It is a numinous place, a place that has a "feel" to it. It seems to have a unique ability to produce wonder and to attract speculations. Of all the places traditionally having associations with King Arthur, none can equal Glastonbury in the profusion or persistence of its Arthurian legends. Some say that:

Arthur made his headquarters near here, atop Cadbury Castle in South Cadbury
Arthur came to rescue his abducted queen, Guenevere, from the clutches of the evil King Melwas on Glastonbury Tor
Arthur's magical sword, Excalibur, was forged in the Isle of Avalon, a name which has come to be associated with Glastonbury
Sir Bedivere returned Excalibur to the Lady of the Lake from Pomparles Bridge, just south of the town, where the River Brue runs, today.
the Holy Grail was secreted in Chalice Well, located in a garden at the base of the Tor
the Biblical disciple of Jesus, Joseph of Arimathea, is said to have landed by boat on Wearyall Hill at the outskirts of the town, bringing with him the new Christian Gospel and the Holy Grail.
On landing at Wearyall Hill, Joseph planted his staff into the ground and from it grew the famous Glastonbury Thorn, a tree indigenous to the Middle East which blossoms each year around Christmas.
Joseph of Arimathea and his missionary party were granted 12 hides (about 120 acres) of land by the local British king Arviragus
Arthur was brought to the Isle of Avalon for the healing of his mortal wound, received in his final battle with Mordred at Slaughter Bridge in Cornwall
Arthur's burial place was discovered in 1190 on the grounds of Glastonbury Abbey
Arthur is sleeping under the hill at Cadbury Castle, awaiting the time for his return

http://britannia.com/travel/magical/magic7.html

Where does King Arthur fit in Islam?

Should a Muslim attempt to convert a xian or a jew as they have both received words from God?"

Juma · 09-18-2006, 02:14 PM

You have proved nothing. Its obvious that from within a religion there will be thousands of "proofs". Each religion is full of them. But what sources from outside Islam is there to indicate that muhammed has existed?

WWJD4aKlondikeBar · 09-18-2006, 02:26 PM

primitivefuture's post > my attention span

Does anybody here really think that they're going to enlighten someone else in this thread? I mean come on! Most/all of these arguments are weak and lacking in real proof.

BTW, I don't get my information on Islam exclusively from Muslim sources because they're obviously biased. Like everyone. Instead, I like to get my information from as many sources as possible.....and form an opinion for myself. "Because they say so" is *never* an excuse to believe anything!

primitivefuture · 09-18-2006, 02:27 PM

CliveDurdle:

Quote:

Where does King Arthur fit in Islam?

Should a Muslim attempt to convert a xian or a jew as they have both received words from God?"

King Author does not fit in Islam just the same manner Zeus does not fit in Judaism.

I could care less how Xians and Jews should be converted to Islam. I strive to be a good human and Muslim. That's my goal. People will enter and leave Islam with their will.

Juma:

Quote:

You have proved nothing. Its obvious that from within a religion there will be thousands of "proofs". Each religion is full of them. But what sources from outside Islam is there to indicate that muhammed has existed?

Is scholarly discourse a scarcity in this forum? I expected a better comeback. Off the top of my head I can already name one souce -- Prophet Muhammad (pbuh)'s letter to the Byzantine Empire:

This is a message from Muhammad ibn Abdullah, as a covenant to those who adopt Christianity, near and far, we are with them.

Verily I, the servants, the helpers, and my followers defend them, because
Christians are my citizens; and by Allah! I hold out against anything that displeases them.
No compulsion is to be on them.

Neither are their judges to be removed from their jobs nor their monks from their monasteries.

No one is to destroy a house of their religion, to damage it, or to carry anything from it to the Muslims' houses.

Should anyone take any of these, he would spoil God's covenant and disobey His Prophet. Verily, they are my allies and have my secure charter against all that they hate.

No one is to force them to travel or to oblige them to fight.

The Muslims are to fight for them.

If a female Christian is married to a Muslim, it is not to take place without her approval. She is not to be prevented from visiting her church to pray.

Their churches are to be respected. They are neither to be prevented from repairing them nor the sacredness of their covenants.

No one of the nation (Muslims) is to disobey the covenant till the Last Day (end of the world).

btw, you answer is illogical as well. I can equally ask you provide proof that Siddharta Gautama existed outside Buddhist sources, or proof of Confucius with outside Confucian sources.

Peace.

primitivefuture · 09-18-2006, 02:30 PM

WWJD4aKlondikeBar

Quote:

Does anybody here really think that they're going to enlighten someone else in this thread? I mean come on! Most/all of these arguments are weak and lacking in real proof.

Good comeback (sarcasm)! Is that all you can say after all I've posted? I've expected a more constructive argumeny

Quote:

BTW, I don't get my information on Islam exclusively from Muslim sources because they're obviously biased. Like everyone. Instead, I like to get my information from as many sources as possible.....and form an opinion for myself. "Because they say so" is *never* an excuse to believe anything!

HOW CAN YOU EVEN TALK ABOUT ISLAM WITHOUT FAILING TO REFER TO MUSLIM SOURCES?? Biased? All religions are biased. I would much rather learn Islam from Muslim sources. Would you like to learn about atheism from Harun Yahya?

Peace.

Clivedurdle · 09-18-2006, 02:38 PM

Quote:

Mr. Rumi informed us on the Charter of Privileges granted by Prophet Muhammad to the monks of the Saint Catherine Monastery in Mt. Sinai in 628 C.E. It consisted of several clauses covering all aspects of human rights including such topics as the protection of Christians, freedom of worship and movement, freedom to appoint their own judges and to own and maintain their property, exemption from military service, and the right to protection in war.

An English translation of that document is presented below.

This is a message from Muhammad ibn Abdullah, as a covenant to those who adopt Christianity, near and far, we are with them. Verily I, the servants, the helpers, and my followers defend them, because Christians are my citizens; and by Allah! I hold out against anything that displeases them. No compulsion is to be on them.

http://uts.cc.utexas.edu/~idsa/event...nar1/index.htm

AH! A letter from Uncle Mo to a monastery! Anyone know anything about its provenance and authenticity?

WWJD4aKlondikeBar · 09-18-2006, 03:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by primitivefuture

WWJD4aKlondikeBar

Good comeback (sarcasm)! Is that all you can say after all I've posted? I've expected a more constructive argumeny

HOW CAN YOU EVEN TALK ABOUT ISLAM WITHOUT FAILING TO REFER TO MUSLIM SOURCES?? Biased? All religions are biased. I would much rather learn Islam from Muslim sources. Would you like to learn about atheism from Harun Yahya?

Peace.

You're the only one of the two of us who is arguing...and "argumency" is not a word.

And "without failing"??? I didn't say that I avoid Muslim sources. Just that they, like many, would be biased and only an idiot would chew up popular opinion as if it were fact. To answer your rhetorical question, I would listen to Harun Yahya's words on atheism and weigh them accordingly. Can you say as much? (yes, that was also a rhetorical question)

I am amused that I somehow got you so hot that you had to type in all caps. Dance, monkey, dance! :wave:

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09-18-2006, 10:35 AM	#21
primitivefuture Banned Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Florida, USA Posts: 441	Please note that the Quran is relatively easy to memorize.

09-18-2006, 02:14 PM	#25
Juma Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Sweden Posts: 2,812	You have proved nothing. Its obvious that from within a religion there will be thousands of "proofs". Each religion is full of them. But what sources from outside Islam is there to indicate that muhammed has existed?

09-18-2006, 02:26 PM	#26
WWJD4aKlondikeBar Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 3,076	primitivefuture's post > my attention span Does anybody here really think that they're going to enlighten someone else in this thread? I mean come on! Most/all of these arguments are weak and lacking in real proof. BTW, I don't get my information on Islam exclusively from Muslim sources because they're obviously biased. Like everyone. Instead, I like to get my information from as many sources as possible.....and form an opinion for myself. "Because they say so" is never an excuse to believe anything!

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