Misso

I'm not sure of this is the right forum for this, feel free to move if it isn't.

It says in the bible somewhere to go forth and spread the word of God. Missionaries have done this to a great extent.
Then there is the Christian defense of God not showing himself, consisting, in my experience, of two main arguements: (1) this would make it too easy to believe, since no-one could deny him anymore if he showed himself, and (2) that it would interfere with the freedom to choose to believe.

Arguement 1 always seems weird to me. I was under the impression that God wants us to be Christians, but aside from that, if he chooses not to show himself because it would make us Christians through manipulation instead of through genuine faith, does that mean that missionaries, who are known to use manipulative tactics such as not giving food (or a bath, such as in the US army in Iraq) before someone is baptized or otherwise turned into a Christian, are acting against God's wishes?

Arguement 2 is, if God is omniscient, nonsense since omnisccience would mean you have no choice. If God is not omniscient, then arguement 2 would mean that missionaries, who go out and influence the freedom to choose to believe, are acting against God's wishes.

So are missionaries, by adhering to the biblical "spread the word", acting against God's wishes, and if so, how is this possible when the bible is the word of God?

-DM-

Interestingly, these closing verses of Mark (on which the missionary endeavor is largely based) are likely a later edition to the original text. Interesting as well is the fact that, for most Christians, the casting out of demons, speaking in tongues, handling serpents, drinking of deadly things, etc., has allegedly been superseded (done away with), although the call to missionary endeavor remains.

In any case, it is quite obvious that "God" could, if he wanted to do so, make it obvious to us that "He" exists. That such is not the case tends to indicate either that "He" does not exist or that "He" chooses not to do so. If the latter, then so far as I am concerned, he is irresponsible and reprehensible given that "He"--allegedly omnipotent and loving--could be far more effective than the millions of evangelists that proclaim "his" existence.

Note that the argument that it would be "too easy," that everyone would become a Christian were "God" to show up, just doesn't wash. The Bible itself teaches that not everyone will accept Jesus even when he returns again and his return has become obvious to every man, woman, and child.

-Don-

Amos

Yes they are wrong because they are acting upon the pagan perspective of the bible. Mark is pagan and does not know what is going on but he only knows that something is going on and this is very much like the evangelists who do not know what they are doing but only know that they are doing something: and behold, they think, you lead a pagan (or Catholic) to Christ and he'll start jumping from joy and come to church next sunday (and they have noticed that the harder you zap him the higher he'll jump).

It should be noted that God does not want us to become Christian but that only religion within Christendom does and so before religious people can become Christian they must be baptised into a religion where salvation leads us to Christ.

To contrast the pagan view of Mark the Catholic perspective is given in John and there we are told to spread the good news but not until we ourselves bear the stigmata: "As the father has send me, so I send you" (Jn.20:21) and this instruction was given while Jesus showed his hands and his side to them. Evangelists should therefore be Jesuits who know what they are doing (because Jesus did) and not just go an a rampage to zap everybody they can get their hands on.

Kosh

Of course, this has always struck me as nothing more than CYA on the part of the cult, to comfort members about why their efforts may be failing.

Doctor X

Kosh:

Exactly.

I think much of the anti-other polemics directed towards disciples is to explain to the target group why they are not as successful . . . despite appearances, they have the real message. Cults thrive with a seige-mentality.

--J.D.

Kosh

Are you aware of any kind of psychological term for this technique?

Doctor X

Why I should not post away from references. . . .

Not off hand.

One of these days I will find a copy of the venerable When Prophecy Fails which studies the phenomenon in a cult--failure bringing the group together, using opposition to justify a belief, et cetera.

--J.D.

Dargo

It is rather strange that god; if he existed, could do a better job of spreading the gospel by snapping his fingers than the efforts of all the human missionaries throughout history. If belief in Jebus was the only thing that could save people from hell, this would be an especially frelled up system.

Imagine a nice family, fathers a surgeon, mothers a a lawyer with two fairly young children. One day, the mother was sick and the father called his two children in. Your mother is going to need to have her appendix removed. I could easily take her to the hospital and perform the operation myself, but I want you to have the honor of doing this. I know this is hard, but if her appendix isn't removed, she will die and you don't want mommy to die do you? Here's some anesthetic, and here are the tools you need. I won't be here, but don't worry I can send thoughts telepathically. If you have a question, just think it and I will put the correct answer into your mind. You will have to have strong faith in my for my guidance to work. If you trust me enough, your mother will survive. If she dies either because you fail in the operation, or don't do it, her death will be entirely your fault.

Do you think any jury would find the father innocent of the mother's death and blame the children? Of course not! Those children were being given an impossible task by their insane father and made to feel guilty for failing. Similarly, if people went to hell from the failed efforts of missionaries, god would be to blame for expecting the impossible of his followers.

Amos

God doesn't care and is not expecting the impossible of his followers. The missionaries you have in mind are not Gods followers and are probably not welcome in the rest of the world.