Freethought & Rationalism Archive

hjalti · 07-08-2011, 03:14 PM

Yup, I think that the only thing we can do here is to speculate.

ApostateAbe · 07-08-2011, 06:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jgoodguy

Quote:

Originally Posted by ApostateAbe

It is mainly a test for adultery, but, yes, it would necessarily entail abortion if the woman is pregnant. The "thigh"--which thigh? Left or right?--is actually a euphemism for the reproductive system of the woman. jgoodguy, with all due respect, a miscarriage that God causes is nothing short of an abortion, and a violent hostile one at that. A lot of states in the United States have recently turned such an act into a crime of murder.

Is it an abortion or is it a miscarriage.

From the wiki

I fail to see the supernatural as a cause of abortion. As near as I can determine, only humans can induce abortions and only by naturalistic means.

The bitter waters are ink and dirty water, which do not induce abortions. This leaves the supernatural and the supernatural does not induce abortions.

From the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miscarriage#Classification

This leaves the supernatural as an explanation for a miscarriage. In short Yahweh can induce miscarriages.

A true skeptic, would reject the supernatural and noting the inefficiency of dirty water and ink to induce much of anything other than a upset stomach would conclude this was intended to get a jealous husband to shut up and stop disturbing the camp. After a few times of seeing smiling wives, pregnant or not, exit unharmed with a husband who has lost 'face' to the camp, the number of jealous husbands will tend to diminish.

Then there is the little matter of Deuteronomy 22:13-19

Quote:

13 If a man takes a wife and, after sleeping with her, dislikes her 14 and slanders her and gives her a bad name, saying, “I married this woman, but when I approached her, I did not find proof of her virginity,” 15 then the young woman’s father and mother shall bring to the town elders at the gate proof that she was a virgin. 16 Her father will say to the elders, “I gave my daughter in marriage to this man, but he dislikes her. 17 Now he has slandered her and said, ‘I did not find your daughter to be a virgin.’ But here is the proof of my daughter’s virginity.” Then her parents shall display the cloth before the elders of the town, 18 and the elders shall take the man and punish him. 19 They shall fine him a hundred shekels[a] of silver and give them to the young woman’s father, because this man has given an Israelite virgin a bad name. She shall continue to be his wife; he must not divorce her as long as he lives.

In which case the jealous husband really has a downside to wanting this proceedure.

The only essential difference between an abortion and a miscarriage is the action and intent of an affecting party. If an action and intent of a party is to cause the death of a fetus, then it is an abortion. There are no useful distinctions between natural or supernatural. If I am a wizard who casts a magic spell and kills a fetus, then it is an abortion. I am not saying that this ever happened, nor am I saying that it is even possible. It is an abortion given the apparently-intended statements and assumptions of the author of this portion of scripture.

jgoodguy · 07-08-2011, 06:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ApostateAbe

Quote:

Originally Posted by jgoodguy

Quote:

Originally Posted by ApostateAbe

It is mainly a test for adultery, but, yes, it would necessarily entail abortion if the woman is pregnant. The "thigh"--which thigh? Left or right?--is actually a euphemism for the reproductive system of the woman. jgoodguy, with all due respect, a miscarriage that God causes is nothing short of an abortion, and a violent hostile one at that. A lot of states in the United States have recently turned such an act into a crime of murder.

Is it an abortion or is it a miscarriage.

From the wiki

I fail to see the supernatural as a cause of abortion. As near as I can determine, only humans can induce abortions and only by naturalistic means.

The bitter waters are ink and dirty water, which do not induce abortions. This leaves the supernatural and the supernatural does not induce abortions.

From the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miscarriage#Classification

This leaves the supernatural as an explanation for a miscarriage. In short Yahweh can induce miscarriages.

A true skeptic, would reject the supernatural and noting the inefficiency of dirty water and ink to induce much of anything other than a upset stomach would conclude this was intended to get a jealous husband to shut up and stop disturbing the camp. After a few times of seeing smiling wives, pregnant or not, exit unharmed with a husband who has lost 'face' to the camp, the number of jealous husbands will tend to diminish.

Then there is the little matter of Deuteronomy 22:13-19

Quote:

13 If a man takes a wife and, after sleeping with her, dislikes her 14 and slanders her and gives her a bad name, saying, “I married this woman, but when I approached her, I did not find proof of her virginity,” 15 then the young woman’s father and mother shall bring to the town elders at the gate proof that she was a virgin. 16 Her father will say to the elders, “I gave my daughter in marriage to this man, but he dislikes her. 17 Now he has slandered her and said, ‘I did not find your daughter to be a virgin.’ But here is the proof of my daughter’s virginity.” Then her parents shall display the cloth before the elders of the town, 18 and the elders shall take the man and punish him. 19 They shall fine him a hundred shekels[a] of silver and give them to the young woman’s father, because this man has given an Israelite virgin a bad name. She shall continue to be his wife; he must not divorce her as long as he lives.

In which case the jealous husband really has a downside to wanting this proceedure.

The only essential difference between an abortion and a miscarriage is the action and intent of an affecting party. If an action and intent of a party is to cause the death of a fetus, then it is an abortion. There are no useful distinctions between natural or supernatural. If I am a wizard who casts a magic spell and kills a fetus, then it is an abortion. I am not saying that this ever happened, nor am I saying that it is even possible. It is an abortion given the apparently-intended statements and assumptions of the author of this portion of scripture.

Are you asserting that this test is an abortion procedure even though non pregnant wives of jealous husbands are subject to it as well as pregnant ones and where the effective abortion method is a sip of dirty water?

jgoodguy · 07-08-2011, 06:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

We don't have any indication that anyone was ever subject to this test, so it is all quite hypothetical.

I agree. In fact this test would have only be performed prior to the building of the first temple. Very likely only when the host of Israel was camped around it in the desert.

Quote:

The priest shall bring her and have her stand before the LORD. Then he shall take some holy water in a clay jar and put some dust from the tabernacle floor into the water.

The tabernacle disappeared after the construction of the first temple. 1 Kings Chapter 8. After the desert wanderings it was placed at Shiloh making for quite a trip for the judgement for many Israelites.

All in all, a very unusual passage with a possible interpolation combining 2 different tests; a test of dust and a test of water becoming dirty water, and only for the time that the tabernacle stood.

ApostateAbe · 07-08-2011, 07:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jgoodguy

Quote:

Originally Posted by ApostateAbe

The only essential difference between an abortion and a miscarriage is the action and intent of an affecting party. If an action and intent of a party is to cause the death of a fetus, then it is an abortion. There are no useful distinctions between natural or supernatural. If I am a wizard who casts a magic spell and kills a fetus, then it is an abortion. I am not saying that this ever happened, nor am I saying that it is even possible. It is an abortion given the apparently-intended statements and assumptions of the author of this portion of scripture.

Are you asserting that this test is an abortion procedure even though non pregnant wives of jealous husbands are subject to it as well as pregnant ones and where the effective abortion method is a sip of dirty water?

Yes.

jgoodguy · 07-08-2011, 07:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ApostateAbe

Quote:

Originally Posted by jgoodguy

Quote:

Originally Posted by ApostateAbe

The only essential difference between an abortion and a miscarriage is the action and intent of an affecting party. If an action and intent of a party is to cause the death of a fetus, then it is an abortion. There are no useful distinctions between natural or supernatural. If I am a wizard who casts a magic spell and kills a fetus, then it is an abortion. I am not saying that this ever happened, nor am I saying that it is even possible. It is an abortion given the apparently-intended statements and assumptions of the author of this portion of scripture.

Are you asserting that this test is an abortion procedure even though non pregnant wives of jealous husbands are subject to it as well as pregnant ones and where the effective abortion method is a sip of dirty water?

Yes.

As long as you are on record believing that.

biblethumping · 07-08-2011, 09:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Master Coelacanth

What does "her abdomen will swell and her thigh waste away, and she will become accursed among her people" mean? Abortion? Barrenness and a miscarrying womb? Plain illness that indicates her sin? Any other ideas?

The woman becomes infertile as punishment, it says nothing about aborting a life. don't you know the definition of "barrenness".

Let me give you some personal experience as i had it happen to me. I did not suspect my wife was cheating on me until I got Gonorrhea. For those who never got this before it's when your privates get infected and start producing this greenish puss inside your urinary tract. it's really painful for men but women can walk around for with it for years and it will eventually prevent you from having babies. So when i got Gonorrhea the first thing i thought was my wife is cheating on me. I inspected the inside of her vagina and found the green puss all over the place. We got the flour and did the ritual - I am a minister but i decided this was too serious and might be a conflict of interest if I acted as the priest so I had my apprentice do the ritual. when we got home I inspected her vagina again and found all of the puss was gone. It was a miracle. I even thought about doing it since my case of Gonorrhea was getting out of hand and was very painful to relieve myself, eventually the infection ran it's course with me. Men can tell when they are absolutely clean after urinating in a clean bowl if you see a "oil slick" on the surface of your urine you still got it. At any rate I started having a lot of sex with my wife and once, maybe under the guidance of Jesus, I didn't pull out and she got pregnant. which is another miracle because life is a miracle. As far as I know the only people that have abortions are atheists.

the truth is I had never thought it could have been me since i was only having an affair with a virgin but it turns out the girl was possessed with the devil and she was not a virgin after all. It just happened to be her time of the month when we had sex. Next time I'll inspect for the hymen before having sex, that's the only way you know for sure.

Since this really worked for me I made this a regular part of my service. you so called scientist should study my flock since i now have 2 confirmed adulteresses WHO CAN NOT bear children no matter how hard we try. This is not really about abortion. what it does is punish the woman for being unfaithful to her husband by stopping any baby production in the future and the husband will know if the wife is cheating.

ApostateAbe · 07-08-2011, 09:34 PM

biblethumping, that's a great story, and I'm just curious about something-- about how much is a tenth of an ephah of barley flour in modern units?

biblethumping · 07-08-2011, 10:02 PM

It's about 2 kilograms or 3 liters. Here in the Philippines i substitute wild rice for barely since they are closely related and rice is plentiful. Is it not wonderful how God grouped foods together and made some similar enough chemically to be used as a ritual? His plan is so much bigger then you can image.

jgoodguy · 07-08-2011, 11:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by biblethumping

Quote:

Originally Posted by Master Coelacanth

What does "her abdomen will swell and her thigh waste away, and she will become accursed among her people" mean? Abortion? Barrenness and a miscarrying womb? Plain illness that indicates her sin? Any other ideas?

The woman becomes infertile as punishment, it says nothing about aborting a life. don't you know the definition of "barrenness".

Let me give you some personal experience as i had it happen to me. I did not suspect my wife was cheating on me until I got Gonorrhea. For those who never got this before it's when your privates get infected and start producing this greenish puss inside your urinary tract. it's really painful for men but women can walk around for with it for years and it will eventually prevent you from having babies. So when i got Gonorrhea the first thing i thought was my wife is cheating on me. I inspected the inside of her vagina and found the green puss all over the place. We got the flour and did the ritual - I am a minister but i decided this was too serious and might be a conflict of interest if I acted as the priest so I had my apprentice do the ritual. when we got home I inspected her vagina again and found all of the puss was gone. It was a miracle. I even thought about doing it since my case of Gonorrhea was getting out of hand and was very painful to relieve myself, eventually the infection ran it's course with me. Men can tell when they are absolutely clean after urinating in a clean bowl if you see a "oil slick" on the surface of your urine you still got it. At any rate I started having a lot of sex with my wife and once, maybe under the guidance of Jesus, I didn't pull out and she got pregnant. which is another miracle because life is a miracle. As far as I know the only people that have abortions are atheists.

the truth is I had never thought it could have been me since i was only having an affair with a virgin but it turns out the girl was possessed with the devil and she was not a virgin after all. It just happened to be her time of the month when we had sex. Next time I'll inspect for the hymen before having sex, that's the only way you know for sure.

Since this really worked for me I made this a regular part of my service. you so called scientist should study my flock since i now have 2 confirmed adulteresses WHO CAN NOT bear children no matter how hard we try. This is not really about abortion. what it does is punish the woman for being unfaithful to her husband by stopping any baby production in the future and the husband will know if the wife is cheating.

So you are trying to get 2 confirmed adulteresses pregnant?

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07-08-2011, 03:14 PM	#21
hjalti Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Iceland Posts: 761	Yup, I think that the only thing we can do here is to speculate.

07-08-2011, 09:34 PM	#28
ApostateAbe Contributor Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: MT Posts: 10,656	biblethumping, that's a great story, and I'm just curious about something-- about how much is a tenth of an ephah of barley flour in modern units?

07-08-2011, 10:02 PM	#29
biblethumping Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Tower of Babel Posts: 557	It's about 2 kilograms or 3 liters. Here in the Philippines i substitute wild rice for barely since they are closely related and rice is plentiful. Is it not wonderful how God grouped foods together and made some similar enough chemically to be used as a ritual? His plan is so much bigger then you can image.

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