Freethought & Rationalism Archive

PhilosopherJay · 10-13-2012, 04:52 PM

Hi All,

What's the deal with the magical Temple of the Lord in Jerusalem? Apparently, it was built by the mythical Solomon using over 180,000 men. The Great Pyramid at Giza only took about 20,000 men.

Quote:

1 Kings 5:13
King Solomon drafted forced labor out of all Israel, and the draft numbered 30,000 men. 14 And he sent them to Lebanon, 10,000 a month in shifts. They would be a month in Lebanon and two months at home. Adoniram was in charge of the draft. 15 Solomon also had 70,000 burden-bearers and 80,000 stonecutters in the hill country, 16 besides Solomon's 3,300 chief officers who were over the work, who had charge of the people who carried on the work

With all this, Wikipedia notes, "There is no direct archaeological evidence for the existence of Solomon's Temple. This building is not mentioned in extra-biblical accounts which have survived."

This phantom building also appears to have had the ability to create silver and gold at will.

Quote:

1 Kings 14:25

In the fifth year of King Rehoboam, Shishak king of Egypt attacked Jerusalem. 26 He carried off the treasures of the temple of the LORD and the treasures of the royal palace. He took everything, including all the gold shields Solomon had made. 27 So King Rehoboam made bronze shields to replace them and assigned these to the commanders of the guard on duty at the entrance to the royal palace. 28 Whenever the king went to the LORD’s temple, the guards bore the shields, and afterward they returned them to the guardroom.

Quote:

1 Kings 15:18
Asa then took all the silver and gold that was left in the treasuries of the LORD’s temple and of his own palace. He entrusted it to his officials and sent them to Ben-Hadad son of Tabrimmon, the son of Hezion, the king of Aram, who was ruling in Damascus.

Quote:

2 Kings 14:14 Then Jehoash went to Jerusalem and broke down the wall of Jerusalem from the Ephraim Gate to the Corner Gate—a section about four hundred cubits long.[c] 14 He took all the gold and silver and all the articles found in the temple of the Lord and in the treasuries of the royal palace. He also took hostages and returned to Samaria.

Quote:

2 Kings 12:18

But Joash king of Judah took all the sacred objects dedicated by his predecessors—Jehoshaphat, Jehoram and Ahaziah, the kings of Judah—and the gifts he himself had dedicated and all the gold found in the treasuries of the temple of the Lord and of the royal palace, and he sent them to Hazael king of Aram, who then withdrew from Jerusalem.

Quote:

2 Kings 16:8
And Ahaz took the silver and gold found in the temple of the LORD and in the treasuries of the royal palace and sent it as a gift to the king of Assyria.

Quote:

2 Kings 24:10
At that time the officers of Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon advanced on Jerusalem and laid siege to it, 11 and Nebuchadnezzar himself came up to the city while his officers were besieging it. 12 Jehoiachin king of Judah, his mother, his attendants, his nobles and his officials all surrendered to him.

In the eighth year of the reign of the king of Babylon, he took Jehoiachin prisoner. 13 As the Lord had declared, Nebuchadnezzar removed the treasures from the temple of the Lord and from the royal palace, and cut up the gold articles that Solomon king of Israel had made for the temple of the Lord.

Quote:

1 Maccabees 1:20

After subduing Egypt, Antiochus returned in the one hundred forty-third year. He went up against Israel and came to Jerusalem with a strong force. 21 He arrogantly entered the sanctuary and took the golden altar, the lampstand for the light, and all its utensils. 22 He took also the table for the bread of the Presence, the cups for drink offerings, the bowls, the golden censers, the curtain, the crowns, and the gold decoration on the front of the temple; he stripped it all off. 23 He took the silver and the gold, and the costly vessels; he took also the hidden treasures that he found.

Quote:

Josephus Jewish War 1.7.2

6. But there was nothing that affected the nation so much, in the calamities they were then under, as that their holy place, which had been hitherto seen by none, should be laid open to strangers; for Pompey, and those that were about him, went into the temple itself (8) whither it was not lawful for any to enter but the high priest, and saw what was reposited therein, the candlestick with its lamps, and the table, and the pouring vessels, and the censers, all made entirely of gold, as also a great quantity of spices heaped together, with two thousand talents of sacred money.

Quote:

Josephus, Jewish War 1.8.8

Now Crassus, as he was going upon his expedition against the Parthians, came into Judea, and carried off the money that was in the Temple, which Pompey had left, being two thousand talents, and was disposed to spoil it of all the gold belonging to it, which was eight thousand talents. He also took a beam, which was made of solid beaten gold, of the weight of three hundred minae, each of which weighed two pounds and a half. It was the priest who was guardian of the sacred treasures, and whose name was Eleazar, that gave him this beam, not out of a wicked design, for he was a good and a righteous man; but being entrusted with the custody of the curtains belonging to the temple, which were of admirable beauty, and of very costly workmanship, and hung down from this beam, when he saw that Crassus was busy in gathering money, and was in fear for the entire ornaments of the temple, he gave him this beam of gold as a ransom for the whole, but this not till he had given his oath that he would remove nothing else out of the temple, but be satisfied with this only, which he should give him, being worth many ten thousand [shekels or drachmas]. Now this beam was contained in a wooden beam that was hollow, but was known to no others; but Eleazar alone knew it; yet did Crassus take away this beam, upon the condition of touching nothing else that belonged to the temple, and then brake his oath, and carried away all the gold that was in the temple.

You would imagine that after the first or second time all the gold was plundered, someone would get that it was not a good idea to keep gold in the temple, or at least after the fourth, or fifth, or sixth, or seventh or eight time.

Warmly,

Jay Raskin

outhouse · 10-13-2012, 05:22 PM

while the legend of Solomon is definately mythical in nature.

there may have been such a man who was king, but highly exaggerated

there was never any real wealth as written. Nor the numbers of people reported

andrewcriddle · 10-14-2012, 06:49 AM

I think the idea is that the men are working for 1/3 rd of the time on Solomon's building projects and 2/3 rds of the time they are back on their farms.

I.E. The men available at any one time would be c 60,000 (which still seems rather high.)

Andrew Criddle

Cesc · 10-14-2012, 07:39 AM

Obviously the description is an exaggeration, if ever there was such a temple.
I think it's more interesting to what extent it's a fertility temple. There also seems to be some astrological significance to the time period over wich it was built, IIRC.

braces_for_impact · 10-14-2012, 09:01 AM

Didn't he use his magic ring to help build the temple? I should think that may be a clue that exaggeration may be at play...

Sheshbazzar · 10-14-2012, 09:06 AM

I heard that it was built with the assistance and technology of invisible alien visitors.

_That explains why the gold and silver supply was endless no matter how many times it was plundered.
The invisible aliens simply pointed their mysterious oh-ha-wah-wah rods and Shazamm! heaps of gold and silver!

Diogenes the Cynic · 10-14-2012, 11:26 AM

I think there was probably some kind of Temple complex (or more likely series of shrines and temples) before the Babylonian occupation, but that doesn't mean it was made by Solomon, or that it fit the Biblical descriptions. No reason to think the mountain could not have been a site of Canaanite/Yahwist sacrifice, though, with a legendary origin retrojected onto it.

Mecca has a rock that Muslims think fell from Heaven and was given to Mohammed by an angel, and that Mohammed built the shrine for it. Obviously that part is myth, yet the stone itself exists, and so does the shrine.

PhilosopherJay · 10-14-2012, 01:04 PM

Hi All,

I did want to make a correction. Apparently Pompey did not loot the Temple, he just saw the stuff in the Holy of Holies

Quote:

6. But there was nothing that affected the nation so much, in the calamities they were then under, as that their holy place, which had been hitherto seen by none, should be laid open to strangers; for Pompey, and those that were about him, went into the temple itself (8) whither it was not lawful for any to enter but the high priest, and saw what was reposited therein, the candlestick with its lamps, and the table, and the pouring vessels, and the censers, all made entirely of gold, as also a great quantity of spices heaped together, with two thousand talents of sacred money. Yet did not he touch that money, nor any thing else that was there reposited; but he commanded the ministers about the temple, the very next day after he had taken it, to cleanse it, and to perform their accustomed sacrifices.

Josephus does explain that the Temple got new contributions after Antochus looted it. (5:3:3):

Quote:

for though Antiochus, who was called Epiphanes, laid Jerusalem waste, and spoiled the temple, yet did those that succeeded him in the kingdom restore all the donations that were made of brass to the Jews of Antioch, and dedicated them to their synagogue, and granted them the enjoyment of equal privileges of citizens with the Greeks themselves; and as the succeeding kings treated them after the same manner, they both multiplied to a great number, and adorned their temple gloriously by fine ornaments, and with great magnificence, in the use of what had been given them.

While we have to take Pompey's name off as a plunderer of the Temple, we should add Vespacian's name to the list. Josephus describes the Triumph he witnessed in Rome (5:7:5):

Quote:

Moreover, there followed those pageants a great number of ships; and for the other spoils, they were carried in great plenty. But for those that were taken in the temple of Jerusalem, (9) they made the greatest figure of them all; that is, the golden table, of the weight of many talents; the candlestick also, that was made of gold, though its construction were now changed from that which we made use of; for its middle shaft was fixed upon a basis, and the small branches were produced out of it to a great length, having the likeness of a trident in their position, and had every one a socket made of brass for a lamp at the tops of them. These lamps were in number seven, and represented the dignity of the number seven among the Jews; and the last of all the spoils, was carried the Law of the Jews. After these spoils passed by a great many men, carrying the images of Victory, whose structure was entirely either of ivory or of gold. After which Vespasian marched in the first place, and Titus followed him; Domitian also rode along with them, and made a glorious appearance, and rode on a horse that was worthy of admiration.

Warmly,

Jay Raskin

Duvduv · 10-14-2012, 01:18 PM

Just wait until we find out what's deep down there underneath in all those tunnels and storage areas that have never been discovered in 2500 years. Read up on all the different aspects of what was going on there. Wiki probably brings most of the sources.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diogenes the Cynic

I think there was probably some kind of Temple complex (or more likely series of shrines and temples) before the Babylonian occupation, but that doesn't mean it was made by Solomon, or that it fit the Biblical descriptions. No reason to think the mountain could not have been a site of Canaanite/Yahwist sacrifice, though, with a legendary origin retrojected onto it.

Mecca has a rock that Muslims think fell from Heaven and was given to Mohammed by an angel, and that Mohammed built the shrine for it. Obviously that part is myth, yet the stone itself exists, and so does the shrine.

Minimalist · 10-15-2012, 09:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cesc

Obviously the description is an exaggeration, if ever there was such a temple.
I think it's more interesting to what extent it's a fertility temple. There also seems to be some astrological significance to the time period over wich it was built, IIRC.

There was....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ain_Dara_temple

it just didn't happen to be in "Jerusalem."

As a matter of fact, the Akkadian name of Shalmeneser V is Sulmanu-asarid.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shalmaneser_V

Sulmanu? Solomon? Hmmm...... And Shalmeneser WAS a great king of a prosperous trading state...unlike 10th century "Jerusalem" which was a one-horse town if it was even that.

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10-13-2012, 05:22 PM	#2
outhouse Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Auburn ca Posts: 4,269	while the legend of Solomon is definately mythical in nature. there may have been such a man who was king, but highly exaggerated there was never any real wealth as written. Nor the numbers of people reported

10-14-2012, 06:49 AM	#3
andrewcriddle Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Birmingham UK Posts: 4,876	I think the idea is that the men are working for 1/3 rd of the time on Solomon's building projects and 2/3 rds of the time they are back on their farms. I.E. The men available at any one time would be c 60,000 (which still seems rather high.) Andrew Criddle

10-14-2012, 07:39 AM	#4
Cesc Regular Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Copenhagen, Denmark Posts: 322	Obviously the description is an exaggeration, if ever there was such a temple. I think it's more interesting to what extent it's a fertility temple. There also seems to be some astrological significance to the time period over wich it was built, IIRC.

10-14-2012, 09:01 AM	#5
braces_for_impact Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: In a nondescript, black helicopter. Posts: 6,637	Didn't he use his magic ring to help build the temple? I should think that may be a clue that exaggeration may be at play...

10-14-2012, 09:06 AM	#6
Sheshbazzar Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: On the path of knowledge Posts: 8,889	I heard that it was built with the assistance and technology of invisible alien visitors. _That explains why the gold and silver supply was endless no matter how many times it was plundered. The invisible aliens simply pointed their mysterious oh-ha-wah-wah rods and Shazamm! heaps of gold and silver!

10-14-2012, 11:26 AM	#7
Diogenes the Cynic Moderator - Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota Posts: 4,639	I think there was probably some kind of Temple complex (or more likely series of shrines and temples) before the Babylonian occupation, but that doesn't mean it was made by Solomon, or that it fit the Biblical descriptions. No reason to think the mountain could not have been a site of Canaanite/Yahwist sacrifice, though, with a legendary origin retrojected onto it. Mecca has a rock that Muslims think fell from Heaven and was given to Mohammed by an angel, and that Mohammed built the shrine for it. Obviously that part is myth, yet the stone itself exists, and so does the shrine.

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