Freethought & Rationalism Archive

WishboneDawn · 01-15-2006, 07:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TySixtus

Christians, have you considered this?

I just got done reading a thread on it, and the lack of provided evidence was simply breathtaking.

Do you guys understand that people lie? And do you understand that they do it a lot, especially back in those days before science, when people believed in all sorts of goofy shit for which there was no evidence?

I mean, seriously consider the severe, utter lack of evidence. Not a shred. Also keep in the mind sheer nonsensical idea of someone rising from the dead.

Has it ever occured to you guys that it's all made up?

I'm just stunned, here.

Ty

Oh gosh, no. Definately not. Never ever in my whole life.

Of course. Does it matter? To me, no. It still provides a very useful metaphor and important tools to guide my life and my relationship with God. Jesus, real or myth, still had some important things attributed to him that I find pretty practical and useful in living a life.

There's a whole big world of belief out there. Literal, aw shucks, "the Bible says so Gertie so it MUST've happen that way," belief is one small part of it.

perfessor · 01-15-2006, 09:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gracchus

Four different accounts of the "resurrection" differ in significant details about who was there and what they saw. It doesn't seem to be reliably verified.

:wave:

I agree.

The analogy I like to make is to the Kennedy assasination. Arguably the most sensational murder in history. In front of hundreds of witnesses, filmed from several angles including stills and movies. And yet after 40+ years, you can't get a dozen people to agree on what happened and what did not. Not everyone agrees that he died, for chrissakes.

Compared to a run-of-the-mill lynching 2000 years ago. Using after-the-fact texts as evidence is just bogus.

ppnl · 01-16-2006, 06:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TySixtus

We've also got texts claiming Zeus turned himself into a bull to impregnate women.

Are you treating them in the same fashion?

Also, we're talking about someone rising from the dead. Am I the only one who thinks this is total, utter bullshit?

Ty

Didn't Thomas Jefferson write a version of the bible that excluded most of the supernatural? So I suppose you are in good company.

TySixtus · 01-16-2006, 06:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WishboneDawn

Oh gosh, no. Definately not. Never ever in my whole life.

So then, what happened?

Quote:

Of course. Does it matter? To me, no. It still provides a very useful metaphor and important tools to guide my life and my relationship with God. Jesus, real or myth, still had some important things attributed to him that I find pretty practical and useful in living a life.

Wow. Okay, I'll bite. What about the ressurection is "practical and useful in living a life"?

And aren't you interested in the truth of the matter? Metaphors are great and all, when they are good metaphors. What is Jesus being murdered on the cross to appease his father's bloodlust a metaphor for?

Quote:

There's a whole big world of belief out there. Literal, aw shucks, "the Bible says so Gertie so it MUST've happen that way," belief is one small part of it.

By your own admission, you don't care if the bible is true or not. Are you a Christian Atheist? I've met a few of them.

TY

TySixtus · 01-16-2006, 07:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amaleq13

Are you sure? I have hard time imagining a discussion of the resurrection without a lot of Bible references.

Heh. Since I don't think there is any credible ressurection story to begin with, the bible wouldn't help. Kind of like proving Zeus didn't impregnate women by using the stories that said he did. I think the stories are a poor way to attack the incident, and would prefer to use logic and reason instead. Saying it's impossible for someone to rise from the dead can be a claim made without the aid of the bible, IMO. But wherever this thread ends up is fine with me.

Ty

Johnny Skeptic · 01-16-2006, 07:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TySixtus

I mean, seriously consider the severe, utter lack of evidence. Not a shred.

Quote:

Originally Posted by hatsoff

Don't confuse lack of proof for lack of evidence.

What evidence convinced you to become a Christian?

Thomas II · 01-16-2006, 08:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TySixtus

Christians, have you considered this?

I just got done reading a thread on it, and the lack of provided evidence was simply breathtaking.

Do you guys understand that people lie? And do you understand that they do it a lot, especially back in those days before science, when people believed in all sorts of goofy shit for which there was no evidence?

I mean, seriously consider the severe, utter lack of evidence. Not a shred. Also keep in the mind sheer nonsensical idea of someone rising from the dead.

Has it ever occured to you guys that it's all made up?

I'm just stunned, here.

Ty

Damn it! I KNEW it!! All along...I knew it!!...The whole thing was a hoax!!

Chunk · 01-16-2006, 08:21 AM

Im open to the view that the whole thing is a hoax, but im less able to believe that a group of people sat around and plotted the whole thing.

I guess its more likely that it was developed over time. But even if this process took 200 years, surely at some point somebody would have to come up with the idea that Jesus was the son of god and did rise again after death.

Even if by the time this was written, nobody was around to remember Jesus, I find it difficult to believe people would just believe and follow it.

Surely it would have been the typical action of a Jewish person in that time to dismiss a fake Messiah. Other Messiahs were dismissed as frauds, so why werent the Jewish people able to prove Jesus a fake, and why did some of them even turn to following him?

The immediate reaction is to compare Jesus to other religions and the fact that the NT is no more believable than say the Greek Gods or the Quran or book of Mormon.

However, if you take Jesus' death as 30ad and Johns gospel as 120ad (www.earlychristianwritings.com), then that only leaves a gap of 90 years.

Considering the NT was developed over such a short time period, the fact that it has to conform to many ideas in the old testament (i.e. fulfiling prophecy) and it was based on a human being who walked the Earth so close to it being written, is it comparable to other religions?

Sven · 01-16-2006, 08:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hatsoff

We have dozens of texts from the first century.

Do we? Got any references for this?

hatsoff · 01-16-2006, 09:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

What evidence convinced you to become a Christian?

How is that relevant?

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01-16-2006, 08:21 AM	#18
Chunk Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: England Posts: 61	Im open to the view that the whole thing is a hoax, but im less able to believe that a group of people sat around and plotted the whole thing. I guess its more likely that it was developed over time. But even if this process took 200 years, surely at some point somebody would have to come up with the idea that Jesus was the son of god and did rise again after death. Even if by the time this was written, nobody was around to remember Jesus, I find it difficult to believe people would just believe and follow it. Surely it would have been the typical action of a Jewish person in that time to dismiss a fake Messiah. Other Messiahs were dismissed as frauds, so why werent the Jewish people able to prove Jesus a fake, and why did some of them even turn to following him? The immediate reaction is to compare Jesus to other religions and the fact that the NT is no more believable than say the Greek Gods or the Quran or book of Mormon. However, if you take Jesus' death as 30ad and Johns gospel as 120ad (www.earlychristianwritings.com), then that only leaves a gap of 90 years. Considering the NT was developed over such a short time period, the fact that it has to conform to many ideas in the old testament (i.e. fulfiling prophecy) and it was based on a human being who walked the Earth so close to it being written, is it comparable to other religions?

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