Freethought & Rationalism Archive

sky kunde · 11-03-2005, 11:26 AM

What's the Reliable First Non-Christian Reference to Jesus?

Julian · 11-03-2005, 11:42 AM

If you mean a non-bibilical (near-)contemporary reference to a flesh and blood historical Jesus, there is none.

sky kunde · 11-03-2005, 11:55 AM

Yes, i knew that. But i really meant to know about the Reliable First Non-Christian Reference to Jesus in all history. Tacitus?

Julian · 11-03-2005, 12:16 PM

It's unclear. Tacitus, Suetonius or, possibly, Pliny who talks more about christians. Neither Tacitus nor Suetonius can be considered reliable. Celsus is another early one as is Porphyry, if memory serves, although their books were destroyed by the christians. I guess we should add Josephus although his two mentions are forgeries.

This web site has christian and non-christian writings on it: http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/

Julian

Toto · 11-03-2005, 12:18 PM

Evidences for the historicity of Jesus

Pliny, 111 or 112 CE, mentions Christians and "Christ"

Quote:

These accusations spread (as is usually the case) from the mere fact of the matter being investigated and several forms of the mischief came to light. A placard was put up, without any signature, accusing a large number of persons by name. Those who denied they were, or had ever been, Christians, who repeated after me an invocation to the Gods, and offered adoration, with wine and frankincense, to your image, which I had ordered to be brought for that purpose, together with those of the Gods, and who finally cursed Christ--none of which acts, it is into performing--these I thought it proper to discharge. Others who were named by that informer at first confessed themselves Christians, and then denied it; true, they had been of that persuasion but they had quitted it, some three years, others many years, and a few as much as twenty-five years ago. They all worshipped your statue and the images of the Gods, and cursed Christ.

Tacitus, writing in 115 CE, mentions "Christ"

Quote:

Christus, the founder of the name, was put to death by Pontius Pilate, procurator of Judea in the reign of Tiberius:

Josephus uses the name "Jesus" in two passages, but the passages are unreliable IMHO and probably date to Christians in the 3rd c.

Christians also point to a character "Yesu" in the Babalonian Talmud, but the date is uncertain.

sky kunde · 11-03-2005, 12:31 PM

Hmmm...

Julian · 11-03-2005, 12:36 PM

You wish to share...?

andrewcriddle · 11-03-2005, 12:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sky kunde

Yes, i knew that. But i really meant to know about the Reliable First Non-Christian Reference to Jesus in all history. Tacitus?

If either or both of the references in Josephus are authentic then this would be the first reference c 96 CE. However the authenticity is disputed. (Most scholars accept the statement about James the brother of Jesus called Christ as authentic, but even if true it is not very informative.)

Pliny c 111 CE refers to the worship of Christ by Christians but this is not an unambiguous reference to a historical Christ.

Tacitus c 117 CE refers to Christ as crucified by Pontius Pilate. (some on this forum doubt the authenticity of this reference but the vast majority of scholars regard it as genuine.)

Suetonius in the 120's refers to Christians as criminalised by Nero and to a riot among Roman Jews c 50 CE about Chrestus who may or may not be Christ.

Mara bar Sarapion refers to a 'wise king' killed by the Jews. This may refer to Jesus and if so is probably written in the 120's.

Probably Tacitus is the earliest genuinely informative reference that is generally accepted as authentic and clearly refers to a historical Christ.

Andrew Criddle

sky kunde · 11-03-2005, 12:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Julian

You wish to share...?

Its ok. Thanks, dudies!

doubtingt · 11-03-2005, 12:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Evidences for the historicity of Jesus

Josephus uses the name "Jesus" in two passages, but the passages are unreliable IMHO and probably date to Christians in the 3rd c.

Toto and others, I noticed on Jeff Lowder's page that you link Jeff accepts these statments from Josephus as authentic and his main reason given is:

Quote:

"The phrase 'James the brother of Jesus who is called Christ' is too noncommittal to have been inserted by a later Christian interpolator who would have desired to assert the messiahship of Jesus more definitely as well as to deny the charges against James." This is probably the single most important argument in favor of authenticity; in my opinion, McDowell and Wilson are right about this. The phrase is incidental to the story. If this passage were an interpolation, it is surprising that so little is said about Jesus and James.

What is your response to this? As a lay observer, my common sense tells me that such a passing and non-committal reference is exactly what one would expect if a later interpolator wanted to slip a Jesus reference into an existing text by a non-Xtian Jew, unless the interpolator was a idiot and/or didn't care if the forgery was obvious.

11-03-2005, 11:26 AM	#1
sky kunde Junior Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Brazil Posts: 26	Doubt About the First Non-Christian Reference to Jesus What's the Reliable First Non-Christian Reference to Jesus?

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11-03-2005, 11:42 AM	#2
Julian Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Washington, DC (formerly Denmark) Posts: 3,789	If you mean a non-bibilical (near-)contemporary reference to a flesh and blood historical Jesus, there is none.

11-03-2005, 11:55 AM	#3
sky kunde Junior Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Brazil Posts: 26	Yes, i knew that. But i really meant to know about the Reliable First Non-Christian Reference to Jesus in all history. Tacitus?

11-03-2005, 12:16 PM	#4
Julian Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Washington, DC (formerly Denmark) Posts: 3,789	It's unclear. Tacitus, Suetonius or, possibly, Pliny who talks more about christians. Neither Tacitus nor Suetonius can be considered reliable. Celsus is another early one as is Porphyry, if memory serves, although their books were destroyed by the christians. I guess we should add Josephus although his two mentions are forgeries. This web site has christian and non-christian writings on it: http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/ Julian

11-03-2005, 12:31 PM	#6
sky kunde Junior Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Brazil Posts: 26	Hmmm...

11-03-2005, 12:36 PM	#7
Julian Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Washington, DC (formerly Denmark) Posts: 3,789	You wish to share...?

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