Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Elijah · 07-23-2012, 01:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

The Marcionites didn't have a 'Jesus the Man.' Just the Stranger or the Stranger God. The term appears most often in Syriac texts and those attributed to Ephrem. Nevertheless it has been demonstrated that Ephrem was very knowledgeable about Greek philosophy and translated the terminology into Syriac.

I'm not familiar with the text you are referring to. I would need to see something specific that refers to the Logos as the Stranger in Plato's works. I wouldn't assume that the Stranger God was a reference to the Stranger in the texts but instead another term for Unknowable God, unless specified otherwise.

I don't have any idea of the view of the Stranger in Plato's texts or how much thinking was put into it around the time of Jesus.

Elijah · 07-23-2012, 01:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Horatio Parker

Achilles went knowingly to his death. A noble death, like Socrates.

Other than that, I agree Achilles is not much of a model for a Savior. Sacker of Souls?

Maybe but I think the comparison is getting pretty far removed from the example to assume an influence.

aa5874 · 07-23-2012, 01:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GakuseiDon

Stephen already hinted at this, but Justin Martyr writes on Plato placing the Son of God on the Cross, and on Plato's apparent doctrine of the Trinity (God, Logos and Spirit of God), this before the concept was even formalized by Christians themselves!...

You are WRONG.

Justin Martyr claimed Plato BORROWED his teachings from Moses.

And further, Justin Martyr did NOT mention the Trinity.--Justin's Jesus was SECOND to God but in the Trinity Jesus is EQUAL to God.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gauseidon

From here:
http://www.earlychristianwritings.co...stapology.html

CHAPTER LX -- PLATO'S DOCTRINE OF THE CROSS.

And the physiological discussion concerning the Son of God in the Timoeus of Plato, where he says, "He placed him crosswise in the universe," he borrowed in like manner from Moses... that Moses, by the inspiration and influence of God, took brass, and made it into the figure of a cross, and set it in the holy tabernacle, and said to the people, "If ye look to this figure, and believe, ye shall be saved thereby." And when this was done, it is recorded that the serpents died, and it is handed down that the people thus escaped death. Which things Plato reading, and not accurately understanding, and not apprehending that it was the figure of the cross, but taking it to be a placing crosswise, he said that the power next to the first God was placed crosswise in the universe. And as to his speaking of a third, he did this because he read, as we said above, that which was spoken by Moses, "that the Spirit of God moved over the waters." For he gives the second place to the Logos which is with God, who he said was placed crosswise in the universe; and the third place to the Spirit who was said to be borne upon the water, saying, "And the third around the third." And hear how the Spirit of prophecy signified through Moses that there should be a conflagration. He spoke thus: "Everlasting fire shall descend, and shall devour to the pit beneath." It is not, then, that we hold the same opinions as others, but that all speak in imitation of ours.

Horatio Parker · 07-23-2012, 02:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elijah

Maybe but I think the comparison is getting pretty far removed from the example to assume an influence.

I can't say for certain whether it was an influence, but that the example is far away I don't see at all. Homer was a mainstay of ancient literacy.

Review of The Homeric Epics and the Gospel of Mark

Quote:

MacDonald's book concludes with an analysis of how Jesus as a character in Mark is also an inversion of Hector and Achilles in the Iliad. Both Jesus and Achilles knew they were fated to die and spoke of this fate often, but whereas Achilles chose his fate in exchange for "eternal fame," and for himself alone, Jesus chose it in exchange for "eternal life," for all humankind.

Elijah · 07-23-2012, 10:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Horatio Parker

I can't say for certain whether it was an influence, but that the example is far away I don't see at all. Homer was a mainstay of ancient literacy.

Compared to Codrus and Socrates it is "far away" IMO. Homer may have been a mainstay in literature, but was seen as the source of superstition with the rest of the poets by the the later philosophers like Plato because of how they depicted the Gods in their works. This conflict puts you in a position to either interpret the Gospels as a depiction of a God on earth like would be found in a Greek poem, or interpret it as an individual who was presenting the Greek philosophical ideals of a king. I go with the philosophers over the poets as being the influence.

stephan huller · 07-23-2012, 11:01 PM

AA

Clement says the same thing about Plato borrowing from Moses. So what?

mountainman · 07-23-2012, 11:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sotto voce

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

"The teachings of Plato", says Justin, "are not alien to those of Christ; and the same is true of the Stoics."

"Heraclitus and Socrates lived in 'accordance to the divine Logos" and should be recognised as Christians.

Clement says that Plato wrote "by the inspiration of God".

Augustine, much later, finds that "only a few words and phrases" need to be changed to bring Platonism into complete accord with Christianity.

The Legacy of Greece - Oxford University Press (1921)

The history of paganism.

Justin, Clement and Augustine were not pagans but christian heresiologists. We are therefore looking at more "early christian" pseudo-historical bullshit.

stephan huller · 07-23-2012, 11:21 PM

There are thirteen epistles of Plato and a similar number of Pauline Epistles.

Notice also this statement in Celsus:

And if any one should apply the words of Celsus to the apostles of Jesus, who were younger than Plato, say whether it is not on the very face of it an incredible assertion, that Paul the tentmaker, and Peter the fisherman, and John who left his father's nets, should, through misunderstanding the language of Plato in his Epistles, have expressed themselves as they have done regarding God? [5.3]

mountainman · 07-23-2012, 11:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Horatio Parker

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elijah

Maybe but I think the comparison is getting pretty far removed from the example to assume an influence.

I can't say for certain whether it was an influence, but that the example is far away I don't see at all. Homer was a mainstay of ancient literacy.

Review of The Homeric Epics and the Gospel of Mark

Quote:

MacDonald's book concludes with an analysis of how Jesus as a character in Mark is also an inversion of Hector and Achilles in the Iliad. Both Jesus and Achilles knew they were fated to die and spoke of this fate often, but whereas Achilles chose his fate in exchange for "eternal fame," and for himself alone, Jesus chose it in exchange for "eternal life," for all humankind.

Everyone who knew Greek knew Homer. I agree with Horatio. MacDonald's analysis makes reasonable sense.

Horatio Parker · 07-24-2012, 12:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elijah

Quote:

Originally Posted by Horatio Parker

I can't say for certain whether it was an influence, but that the example is far away I don't see at all. Homer was a mainstay of ancient literacy.

Compared to Codrus and Socrates it is "far away" IMO. Homer may have been a mainstay in literature, but was seen as the source of superstition with the rest of the poets by the the later philosophers like Plato because of how they depicted the Gods in their works. This conflict puts you in a position to either interpret the Gospels as a depiction of a God on earth like would be found in a Greek poem, or interpret it as an individual who was presenting the Greek philosophical ideals of a king. I go with the philosophers over the poets as being the influence.

Why can't both influences be present?

Plato elevated logos over mythos but Mark sure didn't.

Also - certain fundamentals of Greek philosophy are present in Homer. The Greeks couldn't make progress in the war until they became a unity, in Platonic terms a One, when Achilles returned to avenge Patroclus and face his destiny. It's not just a story about war and loot with those wacky Gods.

Another point is who was Mark's intended audience? If, as is generally believed, gMark was written with a Gentile audience in mind, then it would make sense for Mark to use figures and stories known to his readers.

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

07-23-2012, 11:01 PM	#36
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	AA Clement says the same thing about Plato borrowing from Moses. So what?

07-23-2012, 11:21 PM	#38
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	There are thirteen epistles of Plato and a similar number of Pauline Epistles. Notice also this statement in Celsus: And if any one should apply the words of Celsus to the apostles of Jesus, who were younger than Plato, say whether it is not on the very face of it an incredible assertion, that Paul the tentmaker, and Peter the fisherman, and John who left his father's nets, should, through misunderstanding the language of Plato in his Epistles, have expressed themselves as they have done regarding God? [5.3]

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.