Transplanar

If Jesus was meant to come down from Heaven to die for the sins of man, was the free will of those that convicted and killed him subverted by God for the sake of fulfilling prophecy?

Doug Shaver

I don't see why. Do you think there is reason to believe that nobody would have wanted to kill him unless God had somehow put the notion into their heads?

motorhead

Good question. I have a thread going in Religious Discussions related to this topic. My answer would be the whole life of Jesus (or at least some time leading up to his ministry and the ministry itself) would've had to have been orchestrated by God in order for the right outcome. Would any Christian suggest that the outcome of Jesus life was totally open to multiple outcomes? Did Jesus have the choice to not die on the cross for the sins of humanity? And if so, what was God's plan B?

omega2040

Not necessarily.

The traditional view is that the free will of those involved in the crucifixion was subverted by "sin" -- not God.

It was felt that human sin limits free will, making events such as the crucifixion predictable.

The weakness (for some) of this view is that it implies a God lacking either the will or power to prevent the event. Though he may have had foreknowledge.

storytime

Didn't Jesus say that he laid his own life down and that no man took it from him? That he had the power to lay it down and raise it up?

storytime

I thought the OT portrayed Yahweh as sorta stepping out of the picture in his finality in giving laws via Moses. Isn't this when "the word" instead of the invisible idol became more popular? From my reading there doesn't seem to be an orchestation of a god-man for future generations of Jews. As God stands alone with no savior, mediator, or "idol" beside him, the NT Jesus then becomes a false prophet in equating himself as equal to Yahweh. Whoever wrote the NT seems to have not read about the lone God in his supreme status.

Doug Shaver

Yes, they would. Christians generally are committed to an absolutely libertarian construal of free will.

Yes.

Being omniscient, he didn't need one. He knew that plan A was going to work as intended.

Julio

Jesus’ prayer on the cross “Father forgive them for they know not what they do” subverted the entire theatrics orchestrated by his Father in the original blueprint.
Jesus’ prayer destroyed the “original plan”, by forcing his Father to forgive the crime against his holy child. Of course his Father had to forgive the plotters and executors of the heinous deed. None of those had any time to repent and be baptized. It was an amendment to the original “Constitution” unforeseen by both parties!
But the trouble is that if his Father forgave that crowd of assassins, why not in the same amnesty forgive the rest of the human race?
Therefore, ALL were forgiven on the cross and that’s that!
Preachers, for convenience, forget this important event on the cross, in order to keep going with their lazy and useless lifestyle.

IamJoseph

There was no choice available to a Jesus figure in the 1st C. How would he have passed the decree of heresy hovering upon Judea? - a million other Jews never did! The Gospels fastediously ignores this pivotal, relevant factor while blaming Jews in a manner which any normal person would question as the absurdest of all absurdiites - but the right questions are never asked by Christians! I wonder why.

IamJoseph

Even if this report has .00001% of historical truth - the evil ones referred to can only be the European Roman Nazis, with a tradition of mass murder and false stories right upto recent times. As it is, we have numerous Roman archives of trials - but nothing of the Gospel trials.

One must wonder how Christians expect Rome would have dealt with anyone refusing to worship a depraved Roman emperor. I know of no history of Jews sacrificing their own to the Nazis - not before christianity and not after. Any examples outside of the Gospels?