Freethought & Rationalism Archive

WVIncagold · 02-14-2008, 01:05 PM

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Originally Posted by JayW

Quote:

WVIncagold
have a strong doubt that a 13 year siege existed at all and what really existed was a détente with a garrison of Nebbys army stationed at
Tyre. My point if it took 13 years your not performing a siege....you moved!

Whether it's believable o you or not,it happened. Have you ever laid seige to walled city? It would not have been easy. Tyre was an island when Nebuchadnezzer laid seige to it. There was no such thing as a weapon th could knock down walls. The invading armies had to build ramps to the top of high walls,and move seige machines up the ramps while the inhabitants threw spears and heavy objects at them. When the Romans laid seige to Jerusalem, their sege machines did no good. They had to build higher machines. They advanced on the city a few feet at a time by clearing a path for the machines. The couldn't use bull dozers. They had to build a huge earth ramps to get the siege machines up to the top of the walls. How long wold it take to build a huge earthen ramp without heavy equipment. Nebuchadnezzer had no army at Tyre, until Tyre made a treaty with Him following a 13 year seige. There was no such thing, at that time, as a ship that could carry a seige machine. They were built on site. They could bot be carried across country. A siege machine ws not a ram. It was a very tall usually triangle shaped tower with a very long arm capable of slinging giant boulders.
Tyre was destroyed by Alexander after spending 7 months building a causeway. He killed 10,000 inhbitants and put 30,000 into slavery.
The confusion may come from the fact that part of Tyre was built on the mainland, but was not the main part of the city. Taking the mainland part of the city meant nothing,as long as the island was the the cetner of government.

I am not saying there was not a seige what i am saying is it would not of lasted 13 years and that it would of been pretty darn ineffective without naval support. Are you talking Masada with the romans and ramps? The wood maybe would be built on site if available but the torsion parts had to be shipped and were the expensive part made from sinew. By the way a ballista fits onto a ship nicely but this wasnt until the 4th century that the greeks used it to lob fire. What your talking about is the trebuche which was not around until medievil europe and it derived more destructive force then cannon of the era when they were first used. Even the onager catapult didnt show up until after the ballista and it was a cheaper and easier to be built since it turn one torsion bar onto its side and therby eliminating half of the ballista parts. Again that was long after this battle. a ballista hurls a 30 pound ball with the force of a bus hitting a wall at 20 miles an hour within its effective range. Doesn't the building of a causeway show Alexander had to get his army to the island to destroy it?

arnoldo · 02-14-2008, 02:29 PM

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Originally Posted by spin

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Originally Posted by arnoldo

Still obsessing about the walls and streets of Tyre, huh? Everybody here seems to parrot the arguments of a certain individual which this article proves is rubbish. Till and others suggest that the prophecies about Tyre’s utter destruction refer to the work of Nebuchadnezzar

I merely talked about the evident utter failure of the prophecy -- you know, "never be rebuilt". You can keep your sophistry as to why you pervert the scriptures. You just don't like what they say.

spin

SIr, the economic,social and religous structure which existed in Tyre was utterly destroyed. I already provided lists that after Nebby attacked Tyre each and every single King of Tyre was under foreign control. Get over your obsession on some walls and streets of a city that was thrown under the sea thousands of years ago.

Minimalist · 02-14-2008, 03:14 PM

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Originally Posted by Sheshonq

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Originally Posted by arnoldo

Furthermore, if the mighty island tyre was a commericial superpower would they store there goods out in open on the mainland or would they make a strongly fortefied city in order to keep their import/exports safe?

If they really wanted to keep them safe, they'd put them in a fortified city on an island.

And so they did. Clever, those Phoenecians, eh?

Sheshonq · 02-14-2008, 04:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

SIr, the economic,social and religous structure which existed in Tyre was utterly destroyed.

Absolutely, categorically untrue. The people of Tyre:

* retained all of their religious structure
* their social structure was unchanged;
* their "domination" by any foreign power was nominal at best;
* they remained a regional economic superpower;and
* rebuilt their military.

You are 100% full of shit on this, arnoldo.

In addition, the prophecy talks about an utter destruction and removal of the city, as well as the city being abandoned and unpopulated. You know what? Neither of which has ever happened at any time in history.

No matter how you cut it, the result is the same: PROPHECY FAILS! :rolling:

arnoldo · 02-14-2008, 04:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshonq

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

SIr, the economic,social and religous structure which existed in Tyre was utterly destroyed.

Absolutely, categorically untrue. The people of Tyre:

* retained all of their religious structure
* their social structure was unchanged;
* their "domination" by any foreign power was nominal at best;
* they remained a regional economic superpower;and
* rebuilt their military.

You are 100% full of shit on this, arnoldo.

In addition, the prophecy talks about an utter destruction and removal of the city, as well as the city being abandoned and unpopulated. You know what? Neither of which has ever happened at any time in history.

No matter how you cut it, the result is the same: PROPHECY FAILS! :rolling:

Yup, that's what the princes of Tyre thought when they were exiled into Babylon, NOT.

arnoldo · 02-14-2008, 04:55 PM

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Originally Posted by Minimalist

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshonq

If they really wanted to keep them safe, they'd put them in a fortified city on an island.

And so they did. Clever, those Phoenecians, eh?

Yeah, they were pretty clever when they refused to allow Alexander the Great to enter their temple also, right?

arnoldo · 02-14-2008, 05:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

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Originally Posted by arnoldo

Wrong, your understanding of the prophecy gets an F. Still obsessing about the physical walls and streets of Tyre, huh? Take a look at Isaiah 23

Sorry despite your FLATLAND comprehension of prophecy it is not merely fulfilled at a single point in time in but at multiple points in time. Remeber zekey wrote that MANY NATIONS would rise up and attack Tyre like waves of an ocean. :wave:

The old shifto-changeo approach to your inherent lack of argument. "Don't look at Ezekiel, look at Isaiah." It tells a different story so we manipulate it through a liberal dose of BS to look a little like the other and oh, we're being metaphorical here and there.

spin

Don't forget Luke 10:35. The final judgment upon Tyre is pending. From your FLATLAND perspective you delude yourself that a prophecy is fulfilled at a single point in time, sadly for you, it is often fulfilled along multiple points of time.

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"Woe to you, Korazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago, sitting in sackcloth and ashes. 14But it will be more bearable for Tyre and Sidon at the judgment than for you. 15And you, Capernaum, will you be lifted up to the skies? No, you will go down to the depths.[b]He who listens to you listens to me; he who rejects you rejects me; but he who rejects me rejects him who sent me."

Sheshonq · 02-14-2008, 06:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshonq

Absolutely, categorically untrue. The people of Tyre:

* retained all of their religious structure
* their social structure was unchanged;
* their "domination" by any foreign power was nominal at best;
* they remained a regional economic superpower;and
* rebuilt their military.

You are 100% full of shit on this, arnoldo.

In addition, the prophecy talks about an utter destruction and removal of the city, as well as the city being abandoned and unpopulated. You know what? Neither of which has ever happened at any time in history.

No matter how you cut it, the result is the same: PROPHECY FAILS! :rolling:

Yup, that's what the princes of Tyre thought when they were exiled into Babylon, NOT.

The princes of Tyre already knew the prophecy failed, since Nebuchadnezzar was forced to settle for a truce and didn't get to plunder the city like Ezekiel claimed he was going to do.

I'll bet the princes of Tyre were laughing their asses off. :rolling:

Sheshonq · 02-14-2008, 06:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

Quote:

Originally Posted by Minimalist

And so they did. Clever, those Phoenecians, eh?

Yeah, they were pretty clever when they refused to allow Alexander the Great to enter their temple also, right?

Considering that Tyre was never destroyed -- and the fact that it outlasted Alexander's empire by many centuries -- I'd say the Phoenicians got the last laugh. :rolling:

Sheshonq · 02-14-2008, 06:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

The old shifto-changeo approach to your inherent lack of argument. "Don't look at Ezekiel, look at Isaiah." It tells a different story so we manipulate it through a liberal dose of BS to look a little like the other and oh, we're being metaphorical here and there.

spin

Don't forget Luke 10:35. The final judgment upon Tyre is pending.

Except that:

1. You've never shown that this is a future prophecy, or that picking and choosing fulfillments is a valid method of interpretation;

2. Considering what an incredibly crappy job you've done with history and archaeology and even reading your own damn sources, nobody is about to trust arnoldo's interpretation of this text;

3. and as I showed yesterday, Ezekiel's prophecy indicates that Tyre's neighbors and trading partners were supposed to see its destruction BACK THEN.

PROPHECY FAILS! :rolling:

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