vid

That was error on my part, I thought this one was used for dating, but in fact it was other reference (cited in later post). It was supposed to be dating from Creation, which several christian authors have fixed as "XXX years ago".

I don't see relevance of this to early commentaries on Jesus birth date. Am I missing something here?

vid

Finally, I found Hippolytus' On Daniel translated to english in ANF5, online here:

http://www.ewtn.com/library/PATRISTC/anf5-3.txt

What's weird, I can't find any 25th december, 8 days before kalends of january, or even 2nd April there: Did all those sources (I named two of them) use different (more complete) translation, or did they make 25th december up, or wtf? Can someone please check the greek text provided by Ben C Smith, whether it contains anything more in fourth chapter?

mountainman

Dear Vid,

You have not seen fit to make comment about the unworthiness or otherwise those citations with respect to the comments of the ancient Roman poets that were cited by Constantine the Great, in the extant document known as The Oration to the Saints, delivered personally perhaps by Constantine at the (military supremacy) Council of Antioch, c.324 CE.

My reference to Robin Lane-Fox (above) is worth noting. This author spends perhaps as much as 40-50 pages (I dont have the book in front of me - but it is many pages) on the treatment of this historical document known as Constantine's Oration to the Saints.

If you include these BCE citations from Constantine I will be happy, but if you choose to selectively preclude these citations from your chart, then I'd like to know the rationale behind this.

As far as I am aware the majority of scholars regard the dating of this document, and its authenticity, as reasonably secure around 324/325 CE. Surely this in inside the 5 century circumscribe you set.


Best wishes,


Pete

vid

mountainman: Honestly, I didn't really understand how your post relates to topic, and since I don't own book you used, I found it pointless to inquire any deeper.

I suspect those "ancient predictions" are, much like some prophecies about Jesus in OT, just random similarities, different instances of same god-memes, and adaptations of "pagan" ideas to christianity.

My point was more about exploring any christian tradition that could hold additional (apart from biblical/apocryphal sources) information on jesus birth date, and to map spread of various dates for birth. If you think that Constantine's oration contains part significant to this topic (comments on birth date of Jesus), please post them here, I'd be mostly thankful.

Roger Pearse

I found this one interesting myself, and have been looking for it. But as far as I can tell, no evidence for this exists. Instead there is a chain of possibilities.

The data behind all this is the presence in the Chronography of 354 part 6 of a statement that 25 Dec. is "Natalis Invicti"; and various references in ancient literature to Aurelian creating the Sol Invictus cult in 274 and dedicating a temple of the Sun in that year.

Now for the theory! The question is what "Natalis Invicti" means. Anachronistic ideas of celebrating the "birth" of a deity aside, it may equally mean the anniversary of the date of the founding of a temple; which would explain the Natalis of other deities in the same Chronography. The number of chariot races indicates a late founded festival. If this is the festival of the anniversary of the consecration of the temple of Sol Invictus, as we know that Aurelian did that, and that he did it in 274, then we come up with Dec. 25 274 as the date of the dedication of that temple.

If anyone knows more than me on this, I'd love to hear it. That's what I have got so far.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

Roger Pearse

<Edit>

Roger Pearse

That article on Christmas (by Lake) is a cracker, isn't it?

The text of the Commentary on Daniels by Hippolytus is given in Greek, but then the question raised as to whether Hippolytus said it. The text is being recovered from chunks in catenae, I think, not a continuous text. I've corrected the OCR:

"George the Arabian" is of course George, Bishop of the Arab Tribes.

I'm away from home so can't check my handbooks.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

vid

Definitively... Yesterday i grabbed full scan. Only downside is that he doesn't provide translation for greek / latin texts, so I loose track easily reading it . Btw, AFAIK article is by Kirsopp Lake, not J.B.Lightfoot.

Finally some proper reference. What is "CIG", and where to find it?

Roger Pearse

Oops. Fixed.

CIG = Corpus Inscriptionum Graecorum. Bound to be some series of massive folio volumes only available to very few. Might be some database online, tho.

Huon

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sextus_Julius_Africanus

Sextus Julius Africanus calculated the period between Creation and Jesus as 5500 years, placing the Incarnation on the first day of AM 5501 (our modern March 25, 1 BC), according to Venance Grumel, La Chronologie (1958).