spin

Read the War Scroll: it doesn't in any way relate directly to anything in christianity.

On what grounds do you base this? Texts written, who knows where, in Greek?

They can't.

So you have a collection of Jewish texts featuring hundreds of scribes (the scholarly understanding is that there were many, many different scribal hands involved), a fact unexplainable in the context of a small community. The only possible source for the texts is where many scribes could live, ie Jerusalem. This accords with all the temple-centered texts, MMT, SSS, litanies, priestly rosters. Schiffman and others have seen the Sadducees behind the scrolls. It makes much more sense than a group that did not participate in the temple.

DNR.

pinkvoy

1QM 17 And he shall appoint their retribution with burning...those tested by the crucible. He shall sharpen the implements of war and they shall not become blunt until (all the nations of) wickedness (come to an end.) But as for you, remember the judgment of (of Nadav and Avi)hu, the sons of Aaron by whose judgment God showed himself holy before (all the people. But Eleazar) and Ithamar he preserved for himself for an eternal covenant of priesthood.


The Scroll and the Lamb

5 Then I saw in the right hand of him who sat on the throne a scroll with writing on both sides and sealed with seven seals. 2 And I saw a mighty angel proclaiming in a loud voice, “Who is worthy to break the seals and open the scroll?” 3 But no one in heaven or on earth or under the earth could open the scroll or even look inside it. 4 I wept and wept because no one was found who was worthy to open the scroll or look inside. 5 Then one of the elders said to me, “Do not weep! See, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has triumphed. He is able to open the scroll and its seven seals.”

6 Then I saw a Lamb, looking as if it had been slain, standing at the center of the throne, encircled by the four living creatures and the elders. The Lamb had seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits[a] of God sent out into all the earth. 7 He went and took the scroll from the right hand of him who sat on the throne. 8 And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of God’s people. 9 And they sang a new song, saying:

“You are worthy to take the scroll
and to open its seals,
because you were slain,
and with your blood you purchased for God
persons from every tribe and language and people and nation.
10 You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God,
and they will reign[b] on the earth.”

11 Then I looked and heard the voice of many angels, numbering thousands upon thousands, and ten thousand times ten thousand. They encircled the throne and the living creatures and the elders. 12 In a loud voice they were saying:

“Worthy is the Lamb, who was slain,
to receive power and wealth and wisdom and strength
and honor and glory and praise!”




English Translation of The War Rule (Serekh ha-Milhamah) 4Q285 (SM) Courtesy of the Israel Antiquities Authority (12)

]Isaiah the prophet: [The thickets of the forest] will be cut [
down with an axe and Lebanon by a majestic one will f]all. And there shall come forth a shoot from the stump of Jesse [
] the Branch of David and they will enter into judgement with [
] and the Prince of the Congregation, the Bran[ch of David] will kill him [
by stroke]s and by wounds. And a Priest [of renown (?)] will command [
the s]lai[n] of the Kitti[m]



Transcription and translation by G. Vermes


16 “I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you[a] this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”

17 The Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let the one who hears say, “Come!” Let the one who is thirsty come; and let the one who wishes take the free gift of the water of life.

18 I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to that person the plagues described in this scroll. 19 And if anyone takes words away from this scroll of prophecy, God will take away from that person any share in the tree of life and in the Holy City, which are described in this scroll.

20 He who testifies to these things says, “Yes, I am coming soon.”

Amen. Come, Lord Jesus.

21 The grace of the Lord Jesus be with God’s people. Amen.

Minimalist

Israeli archaeologists, Magen and Peleg, recently published findings that Qumran was a pottery factory not a monastery.


Where does that leave your "Essenes?"

mountainman

It leaves a highly respected organisation within the pagan priesthood.
(Eusebius may have just made some sort of mistake)

See the archives: The Essenes and the bees:

Grog

Sheshbazzar and aa, you are hijacking this thread. I have a 10 week old puppy and a five month old cat who endlessly wrestle and attack each other, nonstop. You are reminding me of them. I have enjoyed your discussions, but now it's a little tiresome. There doesn't seem to be anything new here. I am interested in knowing why pinkvoy has come to think these things.

Toto

The hijack has been split to here

Please confine posts in this thread to those related to the OP.

aa5874

My ARGUMENT is that PHILO, Josephus and Pliny did NOT write about early Christians and Jesus.

In ALL the works of Philo NOT one mention is made of a character called Jesus or people called Christians.

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/yonge/book34.html

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/yonge/book37.html

Philo and the supposed Paul a Jew and a Pharisee should have been contemporaries yet Philo did NOT mention this Jew who went around the Roman Empire telling Roman citizens that the resurrected Jesus of the seed of David was Lord, that every knee in Rome and the Empire should BOW to the name of Jesus and that this same resurrected Jew ABOLISHED the LAWS for atonement.

The mere fact that we have the Pauline letters that supposedly DOCUMENTS the teachings of Paul then it would be expected that such SIGNIFICANT character a Jewish Messiah, the Son of God, the LORD and Savior of the World would have caused a STIR among Jews in the time of Philo.

We hear NOTHING from Philo about the MOST EXPECTED Jew, the Messiah.

Philo wrote about the Essenes and the Therapurtae but NOT about a Jewish character that was SACRIFICED for the Sins of the World and was Worshiped as a God.

Jews REFUSED to worship Gaius the Emperor as a God as stated in "On Embassy to Gaius". Gaius claimed ONLY the Jews did NOT worship him as a God so it would have been UNPRECEDENTED that Paul would have been telling Jews and Roman Citizens to worship a JEW as a God.

These are the words of Philo in "On Embassy to Gaius".
It is erroneous that Philo mentioned people who worshiped a character called Jesus as a God.

Toto

aa5874: the argument in the OP is that the Essenes were really early Christians, or perhaps that Jesus was tied into the Essenes. If you are not going to post about the Essenes, stop posting in this thread.

We all know that Philo did not mention any Christians by name, and the only mention in Josephus is a likely interpolation.

Going on about differences between later Christian theology and pseudohistory does not show anything about what Christians might have been in the first century, if there were in fact any Christians.

mountainman

Had Philo witness Jesus and the Apostles healing he may certainly have thought that they were representatives of the therapeutae and physician-priests of asclepius. The problem is what direct evidence is there in Philo that he witnessed Jesus or christians doing anything? AFAIK there is no such evidence in Philo.

spin

Is there any rhyme or reason to any of this? If so, you need to express it with some commentary. I see nothing that deals with my prior post. What is the point of this your current one?