Freethought & Rationalism Archive

pinkvoy · 07-23-2012, 07:35 PM

Philo, Josepheus, Pliny the Elder did write about the early Christians and Jesus, only they did not call them by that name.

They wrote about what the sect of Judaism the early Christians and Jesus were members of - Essaioi-Therapeutae, and as Jesus was a member of one sect of Essaioi, he was lumped in. i.e when Josepheus wrote of ""Judas of the Essaios race" "Simon of the Essaios "; "John the Essaios" he may or may not be talking about sect members of Jesus (or another individual with same names).

The reason the New Testament is silent on Essaioi is that what Philo and Josepheus and Pliny regarded as Essaioi, the New Testament re-named Essene-Therapeutae "Christians".

A splinter sect of Essenes, from the outside as Philo, Josepheus, and Pliny were seen as Essenes but within the group, they identified Jesus as the return of the Teacher of Righteousness (and Judas as the Wicked Priest).

At least some of the dead Sea Scrolls, such as the Community Rules, were likely to have been authored by members of this sect - the Essenes.

Philo also writes of the Therapeutae, and these mystical Jews theological beliefs form the intellectual background and the development of Paul's mystical Christ and heavenly theology represents a mystical theological development of the Essenes.

Philo did not write of a man named Jesus but he did write of the Therapeutae, they "professed an art of healing superior to that practiced in the cities" - he may not have known Jesus by name but he knew of Therapeutae who taught of healing which is what we find in gospels.

Cure of centurion's son (servant) Mt 8:5–13 Lk 7:1–10 Jn 4:46–54
Cure of a demoniac Mk 1:23–28 Lk 4:33–37
Cure of Peter's mother-in-law's fever Mt 8:14–15 Mk 1:29–31 Lk 4:38
Cure of a leper Mt 8:1–4 Mk 1:40–45 Lk 5:12–19
Cure of a paralytic at Capharnaum Mt 9:1–8 Mk 1:40–45 Lk 4:12–19
Cure of a sick man at Bethesda Jn 5:1–15
Healing of a man's withered hand Mt 12:9–13 Mk 3:1–6 Lk 6:6–11
Raising of the son of the widow of Nain Lk 7:11–17
Healing of a blind and dumb demoniac Mt 12:22
Expulsion of demons in Gadara Mt 8:29–34 Mk 4:35–41 Lk 8:26–39
Raising (curing) of Jairus' daughter Mt 9:18–26 Mk 5:21–43 Lk 8:40
Healing of a woman with a hemorrhage Mt 9:20–22 Mk 5:24–34 Lk 8:43
Restoration of two men's sight Mt 9:27–31
Healing of a mute demoniac Mt 9:32–34
Exorcism of a Canaanite (Syro-Phoenecian) woman Mt 15:21–28 Mk 7:24
Healing of a deaf-mute Mk 7:31–37
Restoration of a man's sight at Bethsaida Mk 8:22
Exorcism of a possessed boy Mt 17:14–21 Mk 9:13–28 Lk 9:37–43
Healing of the blind man Bartimaus Jn 9:1–38
Healing of large numbers of crippled, blind and mute Mt 15:29
Healing of a woman on the Sabbath Lk 13:10–17
Raising of Lazarus from the dead Jn 11:1–44
Healing of a man with dropsy Lk 14:1–6
Healing of ten lepers Lk 17:11–19
Healing of two blind men at Jericho Mt 20:29–34 Mk 10:46–52 Lk 18:35
Healing of High Priest's servant's ear

which matches up with Jesus and his disciple's teachings of healings. Philo may not have known Jesus by name but he know of him and his followers who put an emphasis on healing, and he called them Therapeutae.

Jesus and his followers either borrowed pre-existing Essene-Therapeutae
teachings or advance their own, and their own ideas became codified as Essene-Therapeutae.

So we have several multiple contemporary or near-contemporary accounts of Jesus and early followers in Philo, Josepheus, Pliny the Elder, the Dead Sea Scrolls, in their accounts of Essene-Therapeutae.

This also explains the apparent "silence" of Paul's letters on Gospel Jesus in a way that respects contextual credibility - Paul was writing to believers, whom Philo/Josepheus identifies as Essene-Therapeutae, and they wanted to understand the death of Jesus and his resurrection in terms of mystical theology that they would understand in their own beliefs.

Philo was a contemporary of Jesus, Philo (20 B.C.–50 A.D.), since at the time he wrote Jesus was a member of Therapeutae he was talking about what Therapeutae he did not necessarily know of Jesus by name but he know of his group which he called Therapeutae.

There's an extensive literature on Jesus, Essenes, and the Dead Sea Scrolls by academics

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontl...t/essenes.html

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael White:Professor of Classics and Director of the Religious Studies Program University of Texas at Austin

.The Dead Sea Scrolls show us a lot about the beliefs of the Essenes. Now, we typically think of this language of the coming kingdom as reflecting a belief in the end of the world ... as somehow coming upon them or us soon. But in fact, that's not exactly what they thought. They use language like "the end" or "the last things" or "the last days", but what they mean is the present evil age is coming to an end. Now this "end time" language is what we typically call "the eschaton" or "eschatology" ... thinking about the end. But in Jewish eschatology of this period, what they usually seem to be talking about is an end of a present evil age and a coming new glorious age ... a new kingdom.

The Essenes had an apocalyptic point of view, and they believed in a new kingdom of some kind coming; would this necessarily bring a new Messiah with it?

The idea that the coming kingdom is always to be accompanied by a Messianic figure is not entirely accurate for Judaism in this period. We hear of some groups, for example, who expect the coming change, but never mention a Messiah, or a Messianic figure at all, either as a deliverer figure, or as some sort of heavenly agent. So some forms of Judaism in this period don't ever talk about a Messiah. At Qumran, on the other hand, among the Dead Sea Scrolls, we hear not of just one Messiah, but at least two Messiahs. Some of their writings talk about a Messiah of David that is a kind of kingly figure who will come to lead the war. But there's also a Messiah of Aaron, a priestly figure, who will come to restore the Temple at Jerusalem to its proper purity and worship of God. In addition to these two major Messianic figures, we also hear of a prophet figure.

And in terms of the quest for the historical Jesus, what does the story of the Essenes tell us? What light does it cast on his life and times?

The discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls, and our growing knowledge of the Essene community that produced them, gives us one of the most important pieces of evidence for the diversity of Jewish life and thought in the time of Jesus. Now, it has sometimes been suggested that Jesus, himself, or maybe even John the Baptist, were members of this group. And that can't be proven at all. But what the Essenes and the Qumran scrolls do show us is the kind of challenges that could be brought against some of the traditional lines of Jewish thought, and even the operation of the Temple itself. So if one of our perspectives is that there is this growing tension in Jerusalem, the Essenes are probably the best example of how radical that questioning of Temple life might become.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shaye I.D. Cohen:Samuel Ungerleider Professor of Judaic Studies and Professor of Religious Studies Brown University

WAR SCROLL

What was their expectation of what would happen?

The Qumran Scrolls reveal a variety of scenarios for the end of days. The most conspicuous one or the best known one perhaps, is the scroll called the War of the Sons of Light against the Sons of Darkness. Where the Sons of Light, of course, is short-[hand]... for themselves. The group itself clearly consists of the Sons of Light... the Sons of Darkness are everybody else, apparently - Jews, gentiles, priests, plain people, all alike, lumped together, under the category of the Sons of Darkness, and at some point there will be a major battle, a cataclysmic struggle, not just between people, not just between the bad guys and the good guys, as we would say in America, but also between cosmic forces, the cosmic forces of evil and the cosmic forces of good. And, in this gigantic struggle, the angels will fight along side the Sons of Light, against the Sons of Darkness and the forces of evil. And, needless to say, this will end with a victory for the Sons of Light.... What will happen after the victory, the Scroll does not clearly spell out as carefully as or clearly as we might have liked. Other scrolls have different scenarios or different pictures, which downplay or minimize this battle aspect and play up instead other aspects.

SIGNIFICANCE OF SCROLLS
What is the significance of the Qumran Scrolls?

Even before the Qumran Scrolls were discovered, we knew that Judaism in the time of Jesus was a very diverse phenomena. After all, the Jewish historian Josephus gives us the names of Pharisees, Sadducees, and Essenes. We know from the New Testament of a group called Herodians - what they are exactly, we don't know, but there they are. Rabbinic texts add the names of yet other groups and then once the war comes around, in the year 66, we have the names of a whole slew of other groups.... Plus, we have a very wide ranging rich literature from this period which is impossible to imagine all coming from a single source, or all coming from a single school or a single class. The result was, even before the Qumran Scrolls were discovered, we knew or sensed that Judaism in the 1st century of our era was a very rich and varied phenomena. What the Qumran Scrolls do is to demonstrate clearly and unambiguously the truth of that which we always somehow felt or intuited....

The Qumran Scrolls show us the existence of a sect, a group that has separated itself from society at large, a group that defines itself against the Temple, the single central institution of Judaism..., and sees itself as the repository of everything that is sacred and true and sees all other Jews out there, including the priests, as wrong at best and at worst, irredeemably wicked. That is something which we had never previously seen....

The Qumran Scrolls also reveal a whole range of new books which we previously had not known, or had known about only in fragments or only in quotations, or perhaps in corrupted versions. We now have the original text. We have now a rich library of text showing that diversity was even greater than we had ever imagined and the range of possibilities for 1st century Judaism was far bigger than any of us had ever suspected.

http://www.bib-arch.org/online-exclu...scrolls-14.asp

Quote:

Yet in certain instances it is difficult to avoid the conclusion that Jesus did indeed base some of his teachings directly on sectarian doctrine found in the Dead Sea Scrolls. I shall discuss two such instances here.
The sectarian Dead Sea Scrolls reflect the teachings of the Essenes from about 150 B.C.E. to 70 C.E. Although some scholars still question the identification of the scrolls as Essene, I believe with time and study this classification will become even stronger. Moreover, I believe (although this remains a bit more of a question) Judaism of the first century C.E., at least Palestinian Judaism, was divided into three main streams: the Pharisees, the Sadducees and the Essenes.2 It would therefore be a mistake to minimize the importance of the Essenes.
The first matter on which I wish to focus is the Essene attitude to wealth. The Essenes were the only Jewish religious movement that regarded poverty as a value.
Normative Judaism, to paraphrase Tevye in Fiddler on the Roof, does not regard poverty as a shameful situation, but neither does it see it as something to be proud of. Before the rise of Essenism, the poor were considered wretched creatures who were taken care of by a compassionate Lord. The new movement of Essenes, however, made poverty and the sharing of material goods a cornerstone of their theology and the main principle of their organization.3
The first-century C.E. Jewish historian Josephus, who may himself have tried out Essenism, tells us: “Riches they despise, and their community of goods is truly admirable; you will not find one among them distinguished by greater opulence than another. They have a law that new members on admission to the sect shall confiscate their property to the order” (see box).4
This is exactly what we are told in the sectarian scroll known as the Rule of the Community, or Serekh ha-Yahad (referred to in scholarly shorthand as 1QS): “When he had completed a year within the Community. . .his possessions and his earnings will also be joined at the hand of the Inspector.”5
This people’s dismissive attitude toward wealth is expressed frequently throughout the scrolls. For example, in the hymnic compositions called Hodayot, we read: “The soul of Thy servant has loathed [riches] and gain, and he has not [desired] exquisite delights.”6
Compare these sentiments to the Gospels. One of the most famous sayings of Jesus is, “For it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God” (Luke 18:25; Matthew 19:24; Mark 10:25). This is almost surely an authentic saying of Jesus–it appears in all three Synoptic Gospels* (Matthew, Mark and Luke) and it agrees with other gospel traditions.
Another terse epigrammatic dictum is, “No one can serve two masters. . .You cannot serve God and mammon” (Matthew 6:24).
A similar statement can be found in the Beatitudes from the Sermon on the Plain in the Gospel of Luke: “Blessed are you who are poor, for yours is the kingdom of God” (Luke 6:20). “But woe to you who are rich, for you have received your consolation” (Luke 6:24).7

http://www.thenazareneway.com/essene..._parallels.htm

Quote:

1. The Essenes believed and taught it was their first duty to seek the kingdom of God and his righteousness (Philo).
Seek first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness, and all else shall be added (Mt 6:33; Luke 12:31).

2. They abjured all amusements, all elegances, and all pleasures of the senses (Philo).
Forsake the world and the things thereof.

3. They lay up nothing on earth, but fix their minds solely on heaven (the kingdom of God).
Lay not up treasures on earth. (Mt 6:19)

4. They, having laid aside all the anxieties of life and leaving society, make their residence in solitary wilds and in gardens (Philo).
They wander in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens, and in caves of the earth (Heb 11:38).

5. They neither buy nor sell among themselves, but give of what they have to him that wanteth (Josephus).
And parted them (their goods) to all men as every man had need (Acts 2:45).

6. They utilized baptism, not animal sacrifice, as a mode of repentance for the remission of sins.
And he came into all the country about Jordan, preaching the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins; (Luke 3:3)

7. They forsook father, mother, brothers and sisters, houses and lands, for their religion (Eusebius quoting Philo).
Whosoever forsaketh not father and mother, houses and lands, cannot be my disciples. (Luke 14:26, 33)

8. They being sometimes called monks was owing to their abstraction from the world (Eusebius).
They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world (John 17:16).

9. They were called Ascetics because of their rigid discipline, their prayers, fasting, self-mortification, as they made themselves eunuchs (remained chaste).
There be eunuchs which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. (Mt 19:12)

10.They maintained a perfect community of goods, and an equality of external rank.
Whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant (Mt 20:27).

11. They had all things in common and appointed one of their number to manage the common bag.
And had all things in common (Acts 2:44; Acts 4:32).

12.They detested all ornamental dress and considered it vanity of heart.
Whose adorning let it not be that outward adorning of plaiting the hair, and of wearing of gold, and putting on of apparel (1 Peter 3:3).

13. They would call no man master.
Be not called Rabbi, for one is your Master (Mt 23:8).

14. They said the Creator made all mankind equal.
God hath made of one blood all them that dwell upon the earth.

15. They renounced oaths, saying, He who cannot be believed with out swearing is condemned already.
But above all things, my brethren, swear not, neither by heaven, neither by the earth, neither by any other oath: but let your yea be yea; and your nay, nay; lest ye fall into condemnation. (James 5:12)

16. They would not eat anything which had blood in it, or meat which had been offered to idols. Their food was hyssop, and bread, and salt; and water their only drink.
That ye abstain from meat offered to idols, and from blood (Acts 15:29).

17. They took nothing with them, neither meat or drink, nor anything necessary for the wants of the body.
Take nothing for your journey; neither staves nor scrip; neither bread, neither money, neither have two coats apiece.

18. They expounded the literal sense of the Holy Scriptures by allegory. ( Symbolic representation)
Which things are an allegory. (Gal 4:24.)

19. They abjured the pleasures of the body, not desiring mortal offspring, and they renounced marriage, believing it to be detrimental to a holy life.
They that shall be counted worthy of that world and the resurrection neither marry nor are given in marriage. (Mt 22:30, Luke 20:35) The unmarried careth for the things of the Lord (1 Cor 7:32).

20. They strove to disengage their minds entirely from the world.
If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. (1 John 2:15)

21. They provide not for future subsistence, devoting themselves to the Lord.
Take no thought for the morrow, what ye shall eat and drink. (Matt 6:34)

22. They were ashamed to give the body sustenance, Regarding it as a prison.
Who shall change our vile bodies? (Phil 3:21).

23. They spent nearly all their time in silent meditation and inward prayer.
Men ought always to pray. (Luke 18:1). Pray without ceasing (1 Thess 5:17).

So Philo and Josepheus and Pliny did write about Jesus and the early Christians that were contemporary, only he/they called them Therapeutae-Essene, and some of the religious sect's ideas are contained in some of the Dead Sea Scrolls.

If you could build a time machine and ask Philo about Jesus, he may or may not know what you mean, but if you present to him Jesus healing miracles and his teachings,

They read the holy scriptures and draw out in thought and allegory their ancestral philosophy, since they regard the literal meanings as symbols of an inner and hidden nature revealing itself in covert ideas" (Philo, para. 28).

Jesus taught in parables

Philo would reply, oh yes, I call them Therapeutae, or Essenes, and Josepheus and Pliny "Essenes". Jesus during Philo's lifetime was just another sect leader of Therapeutae.

Letters of Paul should be understood as a continuation of a community that includes the dead Sea Scrolls with "Sons of light" and "teacher of righteousness" "wicked priest"

The Judaism Jesus and Paul understood as "Scripture" included many of the Dead Sea Scrolls as canon as well as books like Enoch.

Any attempts at Jesus-myth theory would have to come to terms with the alternative explanation of understanding Judaism as it existed and which we have primary source, the Dead Sea scrolls, and secondary contemporary sources like Philo and Josepheus and rabbinic writings.

spin · 07-23-2012, 11:17 PM

After 60 years of circulation the Essene hypothesis that connects the DSS to the Essenes has failed to get beyond its initial conjecture. Although it has been highly popular among scholars it has no evidence to support it other than by cherrypicking Josephus and to a lesser extent Philo. The Essene hypothesis is pure conjecture. Nevertheless, both the Essenes and the scrolls writers were strict Jews. The scrolls writers participated in ritual bathing--unlike the notion of baptism as an initiation--and were supporters of the temple (despite at one time being excluded from the temple, as the Sadducees had been during the reign of Salome Alexandra, 76-67bce). A strong connection between the DSS and christianity is now only held by a few of the lunatic fringe, such as Barbara Thiering and Robert Eisenman. Once again to quote the good doctor Leonard McCoy, "it's dead, Jim." It's strictly labeled DNR.

mountainman · 07-24-2012, 03:10 AM

Your post contains many references to the therapeutae, such as the following ...

Quote:

Originally Posted by pinkvoy

Philo did not write of a man named Jesus but he did write of the Therapeutae, they "professed an art of healing superior to that practiced in the cities" - he may not have known Jesus by name but he knew of Therapeutae who taught of healing ....

You need to address the archaeology for the therapeutae of Asclepius. Here is a sample index. The personal physician to the Emperor Marcus Aurelius, Galen, calls himself a therapeutae of Asclepius.

The Asclepian temple network in antiquity represented the public hospital system. These people were not christians.

sotto voce · 07-24-2012, 07:03 AM

N/A
Just goes to show the truth of the saying that you can make the Bible say anything.

pinkvoy · 07-24-2012, 09:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

After 60 years of circulation the Essene hypothesis that connects the DSS to the Essenes has failed to get beyond its initial conjecture. Although it has been highly popular among scholars it has no evidence to support it other than by cherrypicking Josephus and to a lesser extent Philo. The Essene hypothesis is pure conjecture. Nevertheless, both the Essenes and the scrolls writers were strict Jews. The scrolls writers participated in ritual bathing--unlike the notion of baptism as an initiation--and were supporters of the temple (despite at one time being excluded from the temple, as the Sadducees had been during the reign of Salome Alexandra, 76-67bce). A strong connection between the DSS and christianity is now only held by a few of the lunatic fringe, such as Barbara Thiering and Robert Eisenman. Once again to quote the good doctor Leonard McCoy, "it's dead, Jim." It's strictly labeled DNR.

Per Ehrman, Van Voost et al, the Jesus myth "lunatic fringe" and DNR. The fact that real historical scholars regard Jesus myth as lunatic fringe and DNR hasn't stopped posters here from plugging away. Anyway my hypothesis at this time is that some early Jewish Christians were familiar with DSS, i.e War Scroll and the Book of revelation. Early Jewish Christians were in the religious thought world of the DSS texts - s is this a strong connection in your opinion , and letters of Paul and Hebrews and revelation can be understood in terms of DSS religious texts.

So you had a considerable community of Jews who authored the DSS, but they seem unattested and unaccounted for in contemporary Jewish writers like Philo and Josepheus?

As Doherty would say, the sound of silence.

pinkvoy · 07-24-2012, 09:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sotto voce

Just goes to show the truth of the saying that you can make the Bible say anything.

kinda like what Jesus myth polemics

pinkvoy · 07-24-2012, 09:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

Your post contains many references to the therapeutae, such as the following ...

Quote:

Originally Posted by pinkvoy

Philo did not write of a man named Jesus but he did write of the Therapeutae, they "professed an art of healing superior to that practiced in the cities" - he may not have known Jesus by name but he knew of Therapeutae who taught of healing ....

You need to address the archaeology for the therapeutae of Asclepius. Here is a sample index. The personal physician to the Emperor Marcus Aurelius, Galen, calls himself a therapeutae of Asclepius.

The Asclepian temple network in antiquity represented the public hospital system. These people were not christians.

all therapeutae were not Christians, but Philo observed Jesus attempting to heal, and listen to stories of brothers healing, he would call them therapeutae.

sotto voce · 07-24-2012, 09:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pinkvoy

Quote:

Originally Posted by sotto voce

Just goes to show the truth of the saying that you can make the Bible say anything.

kinda like what Jesus myth polemics

Is that a sentence?

pinkvoy · 07-24-2012, 09:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sotto voce

Quote:

Originally Posted by pinkvoy

kinda like what Jesus myth polemics

Is that a sentence?

no

sotto voce · 07-24-2012, 09:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pinkvoy

Quote:

Originally Posted by sotto voce

Quote:

Originally Posted by pinkvoy

kinda like what Jesus myth polemics

Is that a sentence?

no

Ok.

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07-23-2012, 11:17 PM	#2
spin Contributor Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: nowhere Posts: 15,747	After 60 years of circulation the Essene hypothesis that connects the DSS to the Essenes has failed to get beyond its initial conjecture. Although it has been highly popular among scholars it has no evidence to support it other than by cherrypicking Josephus and to a lesser extent Philo. The Essene hypothesis is pure conjecture. Nevertheless, both the Essenes and the scrolls writers were strict Jews. The scrolls writers participated in ritual bathing--unlike the notion of baptism as an initiation--and were supporters of the temple (despite at one time being excluded from the temple, as the Sadducees had been during the reign of Salome Alexandra, 76-67bce). A strong connection between the DSS and christianity is now only held by a few of the lunatic fringe, such as Barbara Thiering and Robert Eisenman. Once again to quote the good doctor Leonard McCoy, "it's dead, Jim." It's strictly labeled DNR.

07-24-2012, 07:03 AM	#4
sotto voce Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: UK Posts: 3,057	N/A Just goes to show the truth of the saying that you can make the Bible say anything.

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