sharon45

the_cave, in Judaism the different sects are only separated by how much they each observe the law. Unlike the christian belief, there is only one Tanach and all the sects realize this. They all choose on their own how much of the law they wish to follow, Orthodox being the most on down to Reform.,

theophilus

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Kilgore Trout
The book of Hebrews claims "the blood of bulls can never take away sins." So it is calling god a liar. The Torah is full of instructions for sin offerings. All the offerings required in the Torah are very specific and NO deviance from the rules is tolerated by god. That's why Hebrews 9:13-14 is completely wrong when it claims to the effect that since the blood of bulls and goats make good sacrifices, imagine what a great sacrifice the blood of Jesus makes. If god says in the Torah he wants a goat or a bull for a sacrifice thats all he wants. A god-man or whatever you think Jesus is, is not a "better" sacrifice. He is an illegal sacrifice. When you find the part of the Torah that says a god/man would make a cool sacrifice be sure to show it to me.


I'm a little curious about your insistence on the enduring command for animal sacrifices. When was the last time you (or you Rabbi) offered any of the prescribed sacrifices?

Also, when did Judiasm become the orthodox religion of Israel?
Judiasm, as you know, refers to the religion practiced by the "Jews," i.e., the remnant of the southern kingdom of Judah, after their return from Babylonian captivity (a captivity imposed by God for their infidelity) and included the synagogue system. Where did God ever authorize the rabbinacal/synagogue system which you practice today?

Have you been to the Temple in Jerusalem for the three annual feasts (every year) as prescirbed by God? In fact, where is the Temple?

theophilus

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Kilgore Trout
First of all Paul claims he is an apostle of Christ so that proves nothing. The only "evidence" that Paul has any authority is he claims to have had a vision and that vision claimed to be Jesus. Anybody can say that. So what I said about Paul having no proof that he's not a false prophet stands.

"First of all, Moses, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Hoseah, Joel, Amos, etc. claimed that they were prophets of YHWH so that proves nothing. The only "evidence" that they have any authority is they claim to have had visions and those visions claimed to be YHWH. Anybody can say that. So, what I said about them having no proof that they're not false prophets stands."

and your point is???????

theophilus

False advertising as in "a drop of reason in a pool of ignorance?"

theophilus

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Kilgore Trout
Here is a quote from Hebrews 10:28-31


28 Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
29 How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know Him who said, "VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY." And again, "THE LORD WILL JUDGE HIS PEOPLE."
31 It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

There is part of your fear. If The NT had legitimate arguments it wouldn't have to resort to the fear of unknown and unprovable tortures in the afterlife to make its point. So Jesus is a legitimate sacrifice and anybody who doesn't think so is insulting god and will go to hell! Hey! that's a pretty good argument.:notworthy

The above criticiism can only be described as bizarre.

Note:

"5: Then shalt thou bring forth that man or that woman, which have committed that wicked thing, unto thy gates, even that man or that woman, and shalt stone them with stones, till they die.
6: At the mouth of two witnesses, or three witnesses, shall he that is worthy of death be put to death; but at the mouth of one witness he shall not be put to death." Deut. 17: 5 & 6

"35: To me belongeth vengeance, and recompence; their foot shall slide in due time: for the day of their calamity is at hand, and the things that shall come upon them make haste.
36: For the LORD shall judge his people, and repent himself for his servants, when he seeth that their power is gone, and there is none shut up, or left." Deut. 32:35 & 36

"120: My flesh trembleth for fear of thee; and I am afraid of thy judgments." Psalm 119:120

"15: But it shall come to pass, if thou wilt not hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to observe to do all his commandments and his statutes which I command thee this day; that all these curses shall come upon thee, and overtake thee:
16: Cursed shalt thou be in the city, and cursed shalt thou be in the field." Deut. 28:15-16 ff

"Ps 9:17 The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God."

"Isa 14:15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of
the pit."

"Ezek 31:16 I made the nations to shake at the sound of his fall, when I cast him down to hell with them that descend into the pit: and all the trees of Eden, the choice and best of Lebanon, all that drink water, shall be comforted in the nether parts of the earth."

sharon45

[QUOTE]Originally posted by theophilus

Quote:

Originally posted by Kilgore Trout The book of Hebrews claims "the blood of bulls can never take away sins." So it is calling god a liar. The Torah is full of instructions for sin offerings. All the offerings required in the Torah are very specific and NO deviance from the rules is tolerated by god. That's why Hebrews 9:13-14 is completely wrong when it claims to the effect that since the blood of bulls and goats make good sacrifices, imagine what a great sacrifice the blood of Jesus makes. If god says in the Torah he wants a goat or a bull for a sacrifice thats all he wants. A god-man or whatever you think Jesus is, is not a "better" sacrifice. He is an illegal sacrifice. When you find the part of the Torah that says a god/man would make a cool sacrifice be sure to show it to me. I'm a little curious about your insistence on the enduring command for animal sacrifices. When was the last time you (or you Rabbi) offered any of the prescribed sacrifices? Also, when did Judiasm become the orthodox religion of Israel? Judiasm, as you know, refers to the religion practiced by the "Jews," i.e., the remnant of the southern kingdom of Judah, after their return from Babylonian captivity (a captivity imposed by God for their infidelity) and included the synagogue system. Where did God ever authorize the rabbinacal/synagogue system which you practice today? Have you been to the Temple in Jerusalem for the three annual feasts (every year) as prescirbed by God? In fact, where is the Temple?

Three methods used for atonement: repentance, charity, and the sin sacrifice.

Numbers 15:27-31 talkls about the sin sacrifice being used for unintentional sins, small sins, not exactly something people would need a savior for.

Hosea 3:4-5 and 14:2-3 talks about a time without sacrifices and then being replaced by prayer.

1 Kings 8:46-50 speaks of when the Jews are in exile and with no temple, that prayer is asked for atonement.

One major point about the coming of the real Messiah in Jewish belief, was in building the Temple and sin sacrifices would in turn continue. It is also in this time that everyone will know that Judaism is the only true religion.

In Leviticus only distinct species of animals are permitted as blood sacrifices, not humans. The animal has to have no marks, and is to be killed quickly without uneeded suffering or pain, not beaten with a drawn out march to a final wait for death.

Ezekiel 18 talks on this subject as well.

Leviticus 17:11 talks about the shedding of blood for tonement. Christians take the blood as literal, then they must also take the altar as literal, there was no altar.

sharon45

These are not quotes from the Tanach, there is no mention of any such place as or word as Hell. Hell is used in christian beliefs and many others, but it is not a part of Judaism.

theophilus

I understand your rationalizations for your failure to comply with the clear demands of God's law. I'm asking where God ever authorized an alternate method besides animal sacrifices.

If you want to insert symbolism into the sacrificial system, then all your arguments against Jesus go out the window, since they are based on your literal interpretation of OT and what make you the arbiter of what is symbolic and what is literal?

theophilus

It may not be part of your interpretaiton of Judiasm, but they are clearly quotes from OT sources which are accepted by many Jews.

Soul Invictus

[QUOTE]Originally posted by theophilus

Quote:

Originally posted by Kilgore Trout First of all Paul claims he is an apostle of Christ so that proves nothing. The only "evidence" that Paul has any authority is he claims to have had a vision and that vision claimed to be Jesus. Anybody can say that. So what I said about Paul having no proof that he's not a false prophet stands. "First of all, Moses, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Hoseah, Joel, Amos, etc. claimed that they were prophets of YHWH so that proves nothing. The only "evidence" that they have any authority is they claim to have had visions and those visions claimed to be YHWH. Anybody can say that. So, what I said about them having no proof that they're not false prophets stands." and your point is???????

I concur, however whether they actually existed or were legitimate sources doesn't marginalize the competing differences in theology held by the Jews (whom give creedance to the OT) and the Christians (whom uphold the NT)

Another minor note is that only Paul can attest to himself. At least the others have some sort credibility within their respective social communities. Paul just comes on the scene out of nowhere attesting to his veracity with no credentials whatsoever except that he killed lots of Christians and that now he has a change of heart.