JoeNothin

I've started considering an argument for why the Bible cannot be sufficient as the inspired Word of God to inform us of God's nature. I like this argument because it doesn't require elaborate regresses into biblical history. I wanted to post it here to see whether it has any merit. As far as I know, this argument is novel. However, if it turns out to be a good argument, then I'm sure it has a long history. I would be really interested to read these older -- most likely better -- formulations. What will be obvious, however, is that this type of argument isn't novel. I just don't know if it's ever been used in this context.

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Consider the following passages:

Numbers 31:7-18
7 They fought against Midian, as the LORD commanded Moses, and killed every man. 8 Among their victims were Evi, Rekem, Zur, Hur and Reba--the five kings of Midian. They also killed Balaam son of Beor with the sword. 9 The Israelites captured the Midianite women and children and took all the Midianite herds, flocks and goods as plunder. 10 They burned all the towns where the Midianites had settled, as well as all their camps. 11 They took all the plunder and spoils, including the people and animals, 12 and brought the captives, spoils and plunder to Moses and Eleazar the priest and the Israelite assembly at their camp on the plains of Moab, by the Jordan across from Jericho. [a] 13 Moses, Eleazar the priest and all the leaders of the community went to meet them outside the camp. 14 Moses was angry with the officers of the army--the commanders of thousands and commanders of hundreds--who returned from the battle. 15 "Have you allowed all the women to live?" he asked them. 16 "They were the ones who followed Balaam's advice and were the means of turning the Israelites away from the LORD in what happened at Peor, so that a plague struck the LORD's people. 17 Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, 18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

And

1 John 4:7-8
"7Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. 8Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love."

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I picked these two passages to juxtapose the concept in the Bible that "God is love" with a descriptions of God, which appears to contradict that concept of love. Really, almost any apparent contradiction will work. I copied and pasted these passages from biblegateway.com.

Now, I only say that these passages appear to contradict one another. I think we've all seen huge debates on whether biblical contradictions are actual. Those that argue that apparent contradictions are, in fact, not actual contradictions provided many elaborate arguments to bolster their points view. And that is as it should be. However, the arguments themselves are the problem. These arguments, while presumably being derived from the Bible, don't actually exist in the Bible. In other words, God doesn't directly tell us how we are to resolve these apparent contradictions; we must create meta-structures from which to view the Bible in order for it to be consistent. These meta-structure must supersede the Bible in authority as they are the means through which we can know the fullest nature of God. Also, there are many different, often competing arguments used to reconcile the same passages. And there is no sense in which anyone would claim that these arguments are inspired. Therefore, I submit that the Bible is not sufficient as the inspired Word of God to inform us of God's nature.

Cross_

But I am telling you, MY ARGUMENT IS RIGHT, because I have prayed to the savior to provide me with that knowledge and so he did. :Cheeky:
In other words: Yes people will claim that their apologetics are inspired and truthful. Of course no skeptical person would accept that claim, but then a skeptical person would acknowledge the contradictions in the bible anyway. That's where arguments are futile because reasoning will only reach reasonable people and rational thought won't convince the unrational.

Darfius

God is love, but God is not only love. Just like I'm sexy, but I'm not only sexy. I'm intelligent, funny, and charming, too. I can't be more sexy than I am charming because I'm so much of both.

In the same way, God cannot be more loving than He is just. Or more just than He is righteous. God's nature is unchanging, and while He does love us, He will and can not allow evil to go unpunished, or He Himself becomes an accessory to it. It is not a contradiction. It is just a case of you ignoring the Nature He has revealed to claim He's revealed it insufficiently.

JoeNothin

However, this explanation of what appears to be a contradiction (even if it is only an appearance) is extra-biblical. In order to know God, I would have to know your argument first, because only then would the Bible be consistent.

JoeNothin

Well, since I'm right, obviously you're wrong.

What I think is more likely is that a Christian would claim that their resolutions to these apparent contradictions are actually "in the Bible." If that's so, I'd be interested to know where.

Chris Weimer

Darfius - right, so that means you should be punished too, right? Because it would be wrong to punish someone else for your crimes, thus no Jesus and you go to Hell (oh, and don't collect $200 either).

Darfius

Deuteronomy 32:4 He is the Rock, his works are perfect,
and all his ways are just.
A faithful God who does no wrong,
upright and just is he. (emphasis mine)

Psalm 11:7 For the LORD is righteous,
he loves justice;
upright men will see his face. (emphasis mine)

1 John 4:8 Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love. (emphasis mine)

Malachi 3:6 "I the LORD do not change."


So if God is unchanging and perfect, is it possible to be more loving than just? Or more just than righteous? No. He is perfectly all 3. So His judgements are necessary to remain righteous, just, and loving all at once.

Darfius

Yes, I should be punished. But I won't be, because God's love for me was shown through Jesus Christ. And His righteousness and justice were preserved, because Jesus was innocent and shed His blood for the guilty. When I accept the gift of His sinless blood, I become righteous through Him. You are welcome to it, as well.

JoeNothin

Ok, I'll concede that the Bible states that God isn't merely love, but also just, righteous, (did I get them all?...), oh, upright, faithful, does no wrong, is sexy (oops, that was you...) etc. If you can find passages that say God has brown hair and freckles, I'll concede that, too.

What we have, then, is a list of descriptors of God. In order to understand what these words mean in the context of God, we have to examine how God actually behaves and see what kinds of things God requires of those who follow him. Presumably, he revealed himself in the Bible.

The first passage I listed described God commanding the Hebrews to do things that, at least on the surface, seem horrific. Honestly, it seems that the only way to claim that God is (just, love, righteous, upright, etc) is to use <whichever> word in a non-standard way. I mean, typically I don't think of killing children as being (just, love, righteous, upright, etc). What, then, does this tell us about what God expects of us? I seriously doubt that anyone would argue that we should all kill children. No matter! I'm sure that what appears to be a contradiction can be reconciled.

All I'm saying is the reconciliation won't be in the Bible. It will require arguments, facts, etc. that aren't in the Bible to make the reconciliation possible. So, in order to know God, more than the Bible is required. Ergo, the Bible is not sufficient.

Godfather

If you should be punished but aren't then god's justice is not preserved.

Now if your sins are forgiven, washed clean, white as snow etc. . . Why is it written that you must ask for forgiveness?(after you are saved) Do you need to keep renewing your membership?