Crimson Glory

Hi there! New to the forum here. Read a lot but this is my first post. :wave:

I noticed that some apologists maintain the idea that the historicity of Jesus could be compared to that of Carthaginian general Hannibal in terms of lack of evidence. However, some main difference might be that Hannibal is a 'possible' character, just a leader and warrior of old times, and Jesus some supernatural agent that performed miracles, raised the dead and allegedly claimed himself Son Of God or God himself. My point of debate is... by the same criteria, why don't we certify the existence of Achilles as historical? Should we?

(Take any other extravagant character of the Illiad, the Odyssey or another demi-God from Greek mythology if you wish)

Clivedurdle

Welcome!

I see Jesus as a "seven stone" Hercules!

http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=224201

http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=202601

Dogfish

Damn, I thought it was gonna be, "Achilles, Hannibal & Jesus walk into a bar...

mountainman

Hey Crimson Glory,

There has been a thread or two on "relative historicities".
The figure of Apollonius of Tyana is often selected because
he and JC were supposed to have both lived in the 1st C.

comparitive historicity (Apollonius of Tyana c.f. Jesus of Nazareth)

Best wishes,


Pete Brown

Solitary Man

Some do think that Achilles was historical, that there may have been a great warrior who bore the name and as such was passed down from ages to ages until it was finalized in the Iliad.

But especially thanks for the name Achilles, whose wrath the Iliad was actually about.

Gamera

Achilles ordered ouzo, Hannibal ordered brandy, and Jesus just asked for a glass of water (about which the bartender grumbled some anti-semitic comment about Jesus' spending habits).

"A toast!" bellowed Achilles. They drank. After the emptied their glasses, Achilles and Hannibal looked at each other, stood up, and in a rage cut down the bartender with their swords.

"Why the heck did you do that?" asked Jesus, appalled.

"He tried to cheat us," said the Greek and Carthinginian, "by giving us cheap wine."

"Oops," said Jesus.

Ben C Smith

What bartender on earth could possibly expect to pass cheap wine off as ouzo??? Maybe by doping it with generous amounts of NyQuil?

Ben.

Crimson Glory

You mean something like...

Achilles, Hannibal and Jesus walk into a bar, have a couple of drinks and start telling how they hate their wives. Achilles says "Last time I told her I went to fight the Troyans and got rid of her for like ten years". "Yeah, me too", said Hannibal, "I told mine I went fighting the Romans and she completely bought it, elephants and all. I've been fifteen years away". And Jesus, having another glass of whisky, snorted and declared "I pretended I died, but my wife wouldn't let me rest in peace, so she went to the cave where I was buried and saw the stone removed, so she screamed out loud... 'You better come home to mama within the next three days, or else!' :Cheeky:

MaximusDementis

LOL.

Ben ,<shakes head> I just dont' know what to say!

Crimson Glory

Thanks, Pete. I'm familiar with Apollonius, some people even believe that the Jesus legend was in part moulded upon his. But I was thinking in a more clearly mythical character for today's standards, and more famous too.

Should we also bear the bias element in mind? There are many many people interested in convincing the world of the historicity of Jesus. Nothing of the sort happens with Achilles.