Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Johnny Skeptic · 01-20-2008, 05:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

You neglect to take into account that all throughout the Old Testament God uses politics and military power for his own purposes.

No he didn't.

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

You fail to realize that God frequently uses men to fulfill his prophecies. Take a look at Pharoah and Moses, Daniel & Cyrus, etc., etc.

However, if the God of the Bible does not exist, that is exactly what we would expect to find. No loving, rational God would ever go out of his way to mimic the ways that things would be if he did not exist, thereby needlessly creating doubt and confusion.

If the God of the Bible does not exist, that explain why humans have to do what God ought to be doing much of himself. Why would God frequently mimic the way that things would be if he did not exist, thereby needlessly causing doubt and confusion?

If the God of the Bible does not exist, there would be suspicious an unexplainable statistics regarding why people believe what they believe. Kosmin and Lachman wrote a book that is titled 'One Nation Under God.' Billy Graham endorses the book on the cover or on one of the inside pages. The book is well-documented. The authors show that the primary factors that influence religious beliefs in the U.S. are geography, family, race, ethnicity, gender, and age. The evidence shows that in the U.S., the percentage of women who are Christians is a good deal higher than the percentage of men who are Christians. I forget what the exact percentage is, but I can find it if I need to. As far as I recall, the percentage difference is over 7%. It is important to note that every year, the percentage of women who are Christians is a good deal higher than the percentage of men who are Christians. That is quite suspicious.

The authors show that elderly skeptics are much less likely to change their worldview than younger skeptics are, and that elderly Christians are much less likely to become skeptics than younger Christians are. If God exists, this means that he discriminates against elderly skeptics and younger Christians. If God does not exist, that explains why elderly people are much less likely to change their worldviews than younger people are. Again, if the God of the Bible exists, it is quite odd that he mimics that way that things would be if he did not exist.

If the God of the Bible does not exist, that explains why the Gospel message was distributed entirely by humans. If God does exist, he is more concerned with HOW people hear about the Gospel message than he is with THAT they hear the Gospel message, and with mimicking the way that the Gospel message would be spread if he does not exist. No loving, rational God would ever act like that.

We have a similar case regarding the distribution of food. James says that if a man refuses to give food to a hungry person that his faith is dead, but God has refused to give food to millions of people who died of starvation. If God does not exist, that explains why all distribution of food is done by humans. If God does exist, then he is more concerned with HOW people get enough food to eat than he is with THAT people get enough food to eat, and with mimicking the way that food would be distributed if he does not exist. No loving, rational God would ever act like that.

Obviously, your convenient "God frequently uses men and nations for his own purposes" argument is fraudulent, and is exactly what would be the case if the God of the Bible does not exist.

You have still failed to explain why God would frequently choose to mimic the ways that things would be if he did not exist, thereby undermining his attempt to reasonably prove that he exists. No loving, rational God would ever go out of his way to mimic the ways that things would be if he did not exist. If a loving God exists, there is no way that it could be predicted that every year, the percentage of women in the U.S. who are Christians would be a good deal higher than the percentage of men who are Christians, and that the percentage of elderly skeptics who become Christians would be much smaller than the percentage of younger skeptics who become Christians, and that the percentage of younger Christians who become skeptics would be much larger than the percentage of elderly Christians who become skeptics. If a loving God exists, the odds against those things being the way that they are are astronomical. If the God of the Bible does not exist, that explains why the primary factors that determine why people believe what they believe are geography, family, race, ethnicity, gender, age, and time period.

Johnny Skeptic · 01-20-2008, 05:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

The proof is Israel.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnnySkeptic

No it isn't. You can't restore what you never had. Genesis 17:8 says that God would give Abraham and his descendants ALL of the land of Canaan as as EVERLASTING covenant. The partition of Palestine failed on both counts.

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

I already explained to you that the term EVERLASTING is a mistranslation, look up the Hebrew word for yourself. Regardless God is a God of the living and not the dead so Abraham and all of the Jews who have died will be resurrected and live in the land of Israel.

It doesn't matter. Genesis 17:8 says that God promised to give Abraham and his descendants all of the land of Canaan as an everlasting covenant, and you yourself said that Jews have never occupied all of Canaan, meaning that the Partition of Palestine could not restore to the Jews land that they never had as required by Genesis 17:8. Following you same line of reasoning, if the Jews occupied one square mile of Palestine, that would be a fulfilled prophecy.

arnoldo · 01-20-2008, 05:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

You neglect to take into account that all throughout the Old Testament God uses politics and military power for his own purposes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

No he didn't.

Obviously you have never read the Old Testament.

Johnny Skeptic · 01-20-2008, 05:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

Message to arnoldo: How could God's land promise to Abraham have been conditional upon good behavior if God knew that the behavior of Jews would not be acceptable to him until thousands of years later?

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

You obviously have no understanding of the Abrahamic covenant, the Mosaic covenant, or the Davidic convenant, or the Bible for that matter. The Jews who are living in the land of Israel this very moment are descendants of Abraham. This is a historical fact.

So what?

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

Since we are living in the "Age of the Gentiles" Israel has not yet fulfilled it's prophecy, i.e., something that will happen in the future.

But that does not have anything whatsoever to do with why the Jews have never occupied all of Canaan. Do you or do you not believe that Old Testament Jews believed that God's land promise was conditional upon good behavior? Why would God have made a land promise to Abraham that he did not intend to validate until thousands of years later? All that that would have accomplished would have been to confuse and bait the Jews with a promise that God had not intention of keeping until thousands of years later.

At any rate, I have reasonably proven that the Partition of Palestine was a self-fulfilled prophecy.

arnoldo · 01-20-2008, 05:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

At any rate, I have reasonably proven that the Partition of Palestine was a self-fulfilled prophecy.

You have proved that you believe all prophecy is either a self-fulfilled prophecy or that it is forged after the fact.

Johnny Skeptic · 01-20-2008, 05:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

You neglect to take into account that all throughout the Old Testament God uses politics and military power for his own purposes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

No he didn't.

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

Obviously, you have never read the Old Testament.

Obviously, you have failed to reasonably establish a correlation between what happened in the Old Testament and God's power.

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

You neglect to take into account that all throughout the Old Testament God uses politics and military power for his own purposes.

No he didn't.

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

You fail to realize that God frequently uses men to fulfill his prophecies. Take a look at Pharoah and Moses, Daniel & Cyrus, etc., etc.

However, if the God of the Bible does not exist, that is exactly what we would expect to find. No loving, rational God would ever go out of his way to mimic the ways that things would be if he did not exist, thereby needlessly creating doubt and confusion.

If the God of the Bible does not exist, that explain why humans have to do what God ought to be doing much of himself. Why would God frequently mimic the way that things would be if he did not exist, thereby needlessly causing doubt and confusion?

If the God of the Bible does not exist, there would be suspicious an unexplainable statistics regarding why people believe what they believe. Kosmin and Lachman wrote a book that is titled 'One Nation Under God.' Billy Graham endorses the book on the cover or on one of the inside pages. The book is well-documented. The authors show that the primary factors that influence religious beliefs in the U.S. are geography, family, race, ethnicity, gender, and age. The evidence shows that in the U.S., the percentage of women who are Christians is a good deal higher than the percentage of men who are Christians. I forget what the exact percentage is, but I can find it if I need to. As far as I recall, the percentage difference is over 7%. It is important to note that every year, the percentage of women who are Christians is a good deal higher than the percentage of men who are Christians. That is quite suspicious.

The authors show that elderly skeptics are much less likely to change their worldview than younger skeptics are, and that elderly Christians are much less likely to become skeptics than younger Christians are. If God exists, this means that he discriminates against elderly skeptics and younger Christians. If God does not exist, that explains why elderly people are much less likely to change their worldviews than younger people are. Again, if the God of the Bible exists, it is quite odd that he mimics that way that things would be if he did not exist.

If the God of the Bible does not exist, that explains why the Gospel message was distributed entirely by humans. If God does exist, he is more concerned with HOW people hear about the Gospel message than he is with THAT they hear the Gospel message, and with mimicking the way that the Gospel message would be spread if he does not exist. No loving, rational God would ever act like that.

We have a similar case regarding the distribution of food. James says that if a man refuses to give food to a hungry person that his faith is dead, but God has refused to give food to millions of people who died of starvation. If God does not exist, that explains why all distribution of food is done by humans. If God does exist, then he is more concerned with HOW people get enough food to eat than he is with THAT people get enough food to eat, and with mimicking the way that food would be distributed if he does not exist. No loving, rational God would ever act like that.

Obviously, your convenient "God frequently uses men and nations for his own purposes" argument is fraudulent, and is exactly what would be the case if the God of the Bible does not exist.

You have still failed to explain why God would frequently choose to mimic the ways that things would be if he did not exist, thereby undermining his attempt to reasonably prove that he exists. No loving, rational God would ever go out of his way to mimic the ways that things would be if he did not exist. If a loving God exists, there is no way that it could be predicted that every year, the percentage of women in the U.S. who are Christians would be a good deal higher than the percentage of men who are Christians, and that the percentage of elderly skeptics who become Christians would be much smaller than the percentage of younger skeptics who become Christians, and that the percentage of younger Christians who become skeptics would be much larger than the percentage of elderly Christians who become skeptics. If a loving God exists, the odds against those things being the way that they are are astronomical. If the God of the Bible does not exist, that explains why the primary factors that determine why people believe what they believe are geography, family, race, ethnicity, gender, age, and time period.

Sheshonq · 01-20-2008, 05:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshonq

I already know how it came into existence - politics and military power.

You neglect to take into account that all throughout the Old Testament God uses politics and military power for his own purposes.

I neglect nothing at all. I have alrady rebutted this claim of yours.

Yeah but the funny thing is whenever God worked through people, He mentioned the people He would use by name:

-------------------

CH2 36:22 Now in the first year of Cyrus king of Persia, that the word of the LORD spoken by the mouth of Jeremiah might be accomplished, the LORD stirred up the spirit of Cyrus king of Persia, that he made a proclamation throughout all his kingdom, and put it also in writing, saying,

CH2 36:23 Thus saith Cyrus king of Persia, All the kingdoms of the earth hath the LORD God of heaven given me; and he hath charged me to build him an house in Jerusalem, which is in Judah. Who is there among you of all his people? The LORD his God be with him, and let him go up.

And:

EZE 26:7 For thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will bring upon Tyrus Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon, a king of kings, from the north, with horses, and with chariots, and with horsemen, and companies, and much people.

And:
ISA 13:17 Behold, I will stir up the Medes against them, which shall not regard silver; and as for gold, they shall not delight in it.

-------------------

So when God works through people, he also names those people.

So we're all waiting on your response to this flaw in your position. Do you have one? Or will this be another claim you keep trying to make, in spite of gaping holes in it?

Johnny Skeptic · 01-20-2008, 05:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

At any rate, I have reasonably proven that the Partition of Palestine was a self-fulfilled prophecy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

You have proved that you believe all prophecy is either a self-fulfilled prophecy or that it is forged after the fact.

Since the Bible is the claimant, I do not have to disprove anything. Can you disprove deism?

Consider the following:

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnnySkeptic

The partition of Palestine is a self-fulfilled prophecy. If the Bible did not say anything about Jews, the partition of Palestine would never have happened. In addition, if the Axis powers had won the Second World War, the partition of Palestine would not have happened. The U.S. emerged from the Second World War as the greatest military and economic power in human history. No nation or group of nations would have been able to oppose the wishes of the U.S. that Palestine be partitioned. If Jewish history and Palestinian history had been reversed, and the Jews had been persecuted by Hitler and other parties, there is no way that the U.S. would have approved of Palestinians getting control of Jerusalem. There is not doubt whatsoever that the partition of Palestine is a bona fide case of a Bible based, self-filfilling prophecy.

Historically, humans have acquired land largely by military means. The partition of Palestine is only one more example of the acquisition of land by military means.

If Jews and Palestinians were contesting the ownership of land in a remote desert region in Australia that had no valuable natural resources, Jews, Muslims, and conservative Christians would be quite interested in those squabbles, but no one else in the world would.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarhitman

And both sides recieved arms and material support from different countries. Did America ever fight along side Jews in the wars? No. America the superpower whichever side it helps wins...right? Try telling that to South Vietnam, try telling that to the Somozistas, try telling that to the anti-Castro forces of Cuba, try telling that to the anti-Chavez forces in Venezuela. You keep on bringing up military might as if Americans fought in this war....they did not.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnnySkeptic

Are you saying that if Jewish and Palestinian history had been reversed, and Palestinians had been persecuted by Hitler and other parties instead of Jews, that the partition of Palestine would have awarded control of Jerusalem to the Palestinians, and would have awarded a grossly unfair amount of land per capita to Palestians such as the Jews got? In addition, are you saying that the Bible did not have anything to with the partition of Palestine.

A brief history lesson is in order here. During the first part of the Second World War, the U.S. did not have any troops in Europe. At that time, did the U.S. fight along side of the British? No. Did aid from the U.S. prevent Hitler from defeating Britain? Yes. Would Palestine have been partitioned the way that it was partioned without help from nations who were predominanantly Christian? No. If Jewish and Palestinian history had been reversed, and Palestinians had been persecuted by Hitler and other parties instead of Jews, would the United Nations have granted the Jews control of Jerusalem and awarded Palestians a grossly unfair amount of land per capita to like the Jews got? No.

That is reasonable proof that the partition of Palestine was a self-filled prophecy. No Bible, no Partition of Palestine. It is as simple as that.

Johnny Skeptic · 01-20-2008, 05:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

I already explained to you that the term EVERLASTING is a mistranslation, look up the Hebrew word for yourself. Regardless God is a God of the living and not the dead so Abraham and all of the Jews who have died will be resurrected and live in the land of Israel.

It doesn't matter. Genesis 17:8 says that God promised to give Abraham and his descendants all of the land of Canaan as an everlasting covenant, and you yourself said that Jews have never occupied all of Canaan, meaning that the Partition of Palestine could not restore to the Jews land that they never had as required by Genesis 17:8. Following you same line of reasoning, if the Jews occupied one square mile of Palestine, that would be a fulfilled prophecy.

Johnny Skeptic · 01-20-2008, 05:24 PM

Message to arnoldo: You said that the Old Testament indicates that Jews will not be kicked out of Palestine again. What Scriptures say that?

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01-20-2008, 05:24 PM	#520
Johnny Skeptic Banned Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Florida Posts: 19,796	Message to arnoldo: You said that the Old Testament indicates that Jews will not be kicked out of Palestine again. What Scriptures say that?

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