Freethought & Rationalism Archive

PhilosopherJay · 07-06-2011, 05:16 PM

Two Proofs that Luke Changed the Birth Story from John to Jesus.

There are two ways that we can show that the original story was changed. First examining some odd scenes and rearranging them properly and second by noticing the lack of coherence in the physical details.

First, we should note that Mary's traveling to visit her cousin Elizabeth makes no sense. Being engaged to Joseph, Mary would have been 12 years old. To imagine that a 12 year girl would have traveled the 70 miles from Nazareth to Bethlehem (about a week's journey by foot) on her own and back again three months later is absurd. At the same time there is a scene with a prophetess named Anna where she does not give any prophecy. When we combine these two scenes and replace Mary with Anna, both problems disappear.

Quote:

And there was a prophetess, Anna, the daughter of Phan'u-el, of the tribe of Asher; she was of a great age, having lived with her husband seven years from her virginity, 2.37 and as a widow till she was eighty-four.

1.39 In those days Mary Anna arose and went with haste into the hill country, to a city of Judah, 1.40 and she entered the house of Zechari'ah and greeted Elizabeth. "Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb! 1.41 And when Elizabeth heard the greeting of Mary Anna, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit 1.42 and she exclaimed with a loud cry, 1.43 And why is this granted me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? 1.44 For behold, when the voice of your greeting came to my ears, the babe in my womb leaped for joy.

[Anna said] 1.45 And blessed is she who believed that there would be a fulfilment of what was spoken to her from the Lord."

1.46 And Mary Elizabeth said, "My soul magnifies the Lord, 1.47 and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior, 1.48 for he has regarded the low estate of his handmaiden. For behold, henceforth all generations will call me blessed; 1.49 for he who is mighty has done great things for me, and holy is his name. 1.50 And his mercy is on those who fear him from generation to generation. 1.51 He has shown strength with his arm, he has scattered the proud in the imagination of their hearts, 1.52 he has put down the mighty from their thrones, and exalted those of low degree; 1.53 he has filled the hungry with good things, and the rich he has sent empty away. 1.54 He has helped his servant Israel, in remembrance of his mercy, 1.55 as he spoke to our fathers, to Abraham and to his posterity for ever." 1.56 And Mary Anna remained with her about three months, and returned to her home.

She did not depart from the temple, worshiping with fasting and prayer night and day. 2.38 And coming up at that very hour she gave thanks to God, and spoke of him to all who were looking for the redemption of Jerusalem.

In the original story, it seems that Anna the prophetess was the grandmother of the prophet John and the mother of the priest Zacharia. That is why Elizabeth calls her "the mother of my lord."

Secondly, we know that the distance from Nazareth to Bethlehem makes the trips between them absurd. Mary does the two week trip four times in one year. She makes the week long trip on her own. She is then dragged about to give birth with Joseph on the trip. She makes the trip again 40 days after birth and finally makes the two week trip a fourth time to attend the Passover that year.

Rather we should imagine that the story was originally about Zacharia and Elizabeth who already live in Bethlehem, which is just six miles, one day's journey to and from Jerusalem.

The giveaway is the incident of Jesus in the temple

Quote:

2.42 And when he was twelve years old, they went up according to custom; 2.43 and when the feast was ended, as they were returning, the boy Jesus stayed behind in Jerusalem. His parents did not know it, 2.44 but supposing him to be in the company they went a day's journey, and they sought him among their kinsfolk and acquaintances; 2.45 and when they did not find him, they returned to Jerusalem, seeking him. 2.46 After three days they found him in the temple, sitting among the teachers, listening to them and asking them questions; 2.47 and all who heard him were amazed at his understanding and his answers. 2.48 And when they saw him they were astonished; and his mother said to him, "Son, why have you treated us so? Behold, your father and I have been looking for you anxiously." 2.49 And he said to them, "How is it that you sought me? Did you not know that I must be in my Father's house?" 2.50 And they did not understand the saying which he spoke to them. 52.1 And he went down with them and came to Nazareth, and was obedient to them; and his mother kept all these things in her heart.

Note that after one day they discover the child missing. They do not go back for him but sort him among their kinsfolk and acquaintances. This only makes sense if their home is Bethlehem and they have reached their home in one day.
Also the story of Zacharia and Elizabeth starts with Zacharia in the temple in Jerusalem. It is where he works. The statement by John that he is in the house of his father only resonates when we understand that John means both that the temple is the house of his father Zacharia and the house of God. Without that relationship the statement falls flat as a pancake and lacks wit and insight.

Warmly,

Jay Raskin

maryhelena · 07-07-2011, 12:12 AM

Well done, Philosopher Jay....

It really does make more sense reading the original JC storyboard as having been written with Antigonus as it's historical model - a historical figure that in later developments of the JC storyboard is downgraded to the JtB figure. That gJohn and gMark can be read as referencing a crucifixion in the 7th year of Tiberius, 21 ce - and that gLuke has upset the applecart with his 15th year of Tiberius - does suggest that an updated version of the JC storyboard was being undertaken by gLuke. Thus requiring that a JtB symbolic figure, a beheaded figure only, be introduced into the developing story - causing 'embarrassment' to those who would know the original JC storyboard - based on Antigonus, now been given a secondary role. The change of focus becoming an issue.... Necessitating, of course that JtB be backdated into the early story - something that is perhaps evident in gJohn.

So, the historical Antigonus figure, is later portrayed in the JtB figure (as in Antiquities where Herod fears that JtB might inspire a rebellion). The history of Angitonus been combined, overtaken, with another historical story. It's that second JC story that is relevant to the 15th year of Tiberius.

In previous posts I have suggested that this second historical figure is Philip the Tetrarch. Josephus gives the time of his death as either 20th or 22nd year of Tiberius (33/34 or 36 ce) - dating that involves the crucifixion of the gospel JC story. Philip, of course was not crucified. (Antigonus being both crucified, tied to a cross and flogged and beheaded, 37 b.c.). It's this carry over history, crucifixion and flogging, from Antigonus, that has been fused with the Philip history to create the pseudo-historical figure of JC that we now have.

Who was Philip the Tetrarch and what was his connection to Antigonus? Big questions, the answers to which I think Josephus has done his best to cover up.

Quote:

Originally Posted by maryhelena

Who is Philip the Tetrarch?

So, Philosopher Jay, it's very much a case of follow the money - follow the story - and let the pieces fall wherever they may. Arguing until kingdom come over interpolations and interpretations of what 'Paul' was on about - well then, fine - after the gospel JC story has first been read through the eyes of it's historical context.

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilosopherJay

Two Proofs that Luke Changed the Birth Story from John to Jesus.

There are two ways that we can show that the original story was changed. First examining some odd scenes and rearranging them properly and second by noticing the lack of coherence in the physical details.

First, we should note that Mary's traveling to visit her cousin Elizabeth makes no sense. Being engaged to Joseph, Mary would have been 12 years old. To imagine that a 12 year girl would have traveled the 70 miles from Nazareth to Bethlehem (about a week's journey by foot) on her own and back again three months later is absurd. At the same time there is a scene with a prophetess named Anna where she does not give any prophecy. When we combine these two scenes and replace Mary with Anna, both problems disappear.

Quote:

And there was a prophetess, Anna, the daughter of Phan'u-el, of the tribe of Asher; she was of a great age, having lived with her husband seven years from her virginity, 2.37 and as a widow till she was eighty-four.

1.39 In those days Mary Anna arose and went with haste into the hill country, to a city of Judah, 1.40 and she entered the house of Zechari'ah and greeted Elizabeth. "Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb! 1.41 And when Elizabeth heard the greeting of Mary Anna, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit 1.42 and she exclaimed with a loud cry, 1.43 And why is this granted me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? 1.44 For behold, when the voice of your greeting came to my ears, the babe in my womb leaped for joy.

[Anna said] 1.45 And blessed is she who believed that there would be a fulfilment of what was spoken to her from the Lord."

1.46 And Mary Elizabeth said, "My soul magnifies the Lord, 1.47 and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior, 1.48 for he has regarded the low estate of his handmaiden. For behold, henceforth all generations will call me blessed; 1.49 for he who is mighty has done great things for me, and holy is his name. 1.50 And his mercy is on those who fear him from generation to generation. 1.51 He has shown strength with his arm, he has scattered the proud in the imagination of their hearts, 1.52 he has put down the mighty from their thrones, and exalted those of low degree; 1.53 he has filled the hungry with good things, and the rich he has sent empty away. 1.54 He has helped his servant Israel, in remembrance of his mercy, 1.55 as he spoke to our fathers, to Abraham and to his posterity for ever." 1.56 And Mary Anna remained with her about three months, and returned to her home.

She did not depart from the temple, worshiping with fasting and prayer night and day. 2.38 And coming up at that very hour she gave thanks to God, and spoke of him to all who were looking for the redemption of Jerusalem.

In the original story, it seems that Anna the prophetess was the grandmother of the prophet John and the mother of the priest Zacharia. That is why Elizabeth calls her "the mother of my lord."

Secondly, we know that the distance from Nazareth to Bethlehem makes the trips between them absurd. Mary does the two week trip four times in one year. She makes the week long trip on her own. She is then dragged about to give birth with Joseph on the trip. She makes the trip again 40 days after birth and finally makes the two week trip a fourth time to attend the Passover that year.

Rather we should imagine that the story was originally about Zacharia and Elizabeth who already live in Bethlehem, which is just six miles, one day's journey to and from Jerusalem.

The giveaway is the incident of Jesus in the temple

Quote:

2.42 And when he was twelve years old, they went up according to custom; 2.43 and when the feast was ended, as they were returning, the boy Jesus stayed behind in Jerusalem. His parents did not know it, 2.44 but supposing him to be in the company they went a day's journey, and they sought him among their kinsfolk and acquaintances; 2.45 and when they did not find him, they returned to Jerusalem, seeking him. 2.46 After three days they found him in the temple, sitting among the teachers, listening to them and asking them questions; 2.47 and all who heard him were amazed at his understanding and his answers. 2.48 And when they saw him they were astonished; and his mother said to him, "Son, why have you treated us so? Behold, your father and I have been looking for you anxiously." 2.49 And he said to them, "How is it that you sought me? Did you not know that I must be in my Father's house?" 2.50 And they did not understand the saying which he spoke to them. 52.1 And he went down with them and came to Nazareth, and was obedient to them; and his mother kept all these things in her heart.

Note that after one day they discover the child missing. They do not go back for him but sort him among their kinsfolk and acquaintances. This only makes sense if their home is Bethlehem and they have reached their home in one day.
Also the story of Zacharia and Elizabeth starts with Zacharia in the temple in Jerusalem. It is where he works. The statement by John that he is in the house of his father only resonates when we understand that John means both that the temple is the house of his father Zacharia and the house of God. Without that relationship the statement falls flat as a pancake and lacks wit and insight.

Warmly,

Jay Raskin

maryhelena · 07-07-2011, 07:38 AM

Hi, Philosopher Jay

Just a further thought re your OP. Perhaps it's the Nativity gospel of James that is the switch over re the nativity gospel story referencing JtB or JC. And the change over is made by the figure Anna..........

In the Nativity gospel of James, Anna is the mother of Mary - not the mother of Zacharia and hence not the grandmother of John - as can be inferred from gLuke. That's the big switch! Anna becomes the mother of Mary! gLuke prefers to have Anna as the more neutral figure - the prophetess. However, by giving her 7 years of marriage and being in her 84th year - we are dealing with prophetic numbers. 84 minus 7 = 77 years. 70 +7. Perhaps indicating that we are not dealing with two contemporary figures, JtB and JC - but with two historical figures, living at different time periods, whose history has been fused into the gospel pseudo-historical figures of JC and JtB.

(and of course, gLuke is also indicating that 70 years between the 15th year of Tiberius and the rule of Lysanias of Abilene in 40 b.c. - and also working from the 15th year of Tiberius to the end of Pilate's rule in 36 ce - we have a 7 year period....About 77 years from the time when Herod the Great was made King in Rome, around 40 b.c. - until the end of Pilate's rule in 36/37 c.e.)

Quote:

Nativity gospel of James

And Mary was in the temple of the Lord as if she were a dove that dwelt there, and she received food from the hand of an angel. And when she was twelve years old there was held a council of the priests, saying: Behold, Mary has reached the age of twelve years in the temple of the Lord. What then shall we do with her, test perchance she defile the sanctuary of the Lord? And they said to the high priest: Thou standest by the altar of the Lord; go in, and pray concerning her; and whatever the Lord shall manifest unto thee, that also will we do. And the high priest went in, taking the robe with the twelve bells into the holy of holies; and he prayed concerning her. And behold an angel of the Lord stood by him, saying unto him: Zacharias, Zacharias, go out and assemble the widowers of the people, and let them bring each his rod; and to whomsoever the Lord shall show a sign, his wife shall she be. And the heralds went out through all the circuit of Judaea, and the trumpet of the Lord sounded, and all ran.

PhilosopherJay · 07-08-2011, 10:52 PM

Hi maryhelena,

It is interesting that he mentions these two numbers, seven years of marriage and she's 84 years old. What I thought about was that 14 was the age of marriage in the Roman world (it was 13 in the Jewish world). Thus it would be seventy years from the time she was married. I'm not sure, however how it all fits.

Anna or Hannah was the mother of Samuel. The book 1. Samuel tells how she turned him into a Nazorene (or Nazorite) because she was barren and God gave her the child. Samuel is a prophet and judge. He anoints both Saul and David as kings of Israel.

There is a problem in the text in that Anna is a prophetess and we don't get a chance to hear her prediction. Yet, we do hear the prophesies of the character Simeon. Simeon talks about being ready to die after seeing Jesus, but we never find out how old he is.

I suggest that Anna and Simeon were originally just one character. Luke has split them into two. He didn't want a woman portrayed as the first to predict Jesus' greatness.

Here is the Anna and Simeon text combined.

Quote:

36And there was a prophetess, Anna the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Asher. She was advanced in years and had lived with her husband [25And there was a man in Jerusalem whose name was Simeon;]
seven years after her marriage, 37and then as a widow to the age of eighty-four. and this [wo]man was righteous and devout, looking for the consolation of Israel; and the Holy Spirit was upon him [her]. 26And it had been revealed to him [her] by the Holy Spirit that [s]he would not see death before [s]he had seen the Lord’s Christ. 27And he came in the Spirit into the temple; and when the parents brought in the child Jesus, to carry out for Him the custom of the Law, 28then [s]he took Him into his[her] arms, and blessed God, and said,
29“Now Lord, You are releasing Your bond-servant to depart in peace,
According to Your word;
30For my eyes have seen Your salvation,
31Which You have prepared in the presence of all peoples,
32A LIGHT OF REVELATION TO THE GENTILES,
And the glory of Your people Israel.”
33And His father and mother were amazed at the things which were being said about Him. 34And Simeon [Elizabeth] blessed them and said to Mary His mother, “Behold, this Child is appointed for the fall and rise of many in Israel, and for a sign to be opposed— 35and a sword will pierce even your own soul—to the end that thoughts from many hearts may be revealed.”
She never left the temple, serving night and day with fastings and prayers. 38At that very moment she came up and began giving thanks to God, and continued to speak of Him to all those who were looking for the redemption of Jerusalem.

Warmly,

Jay Raskin

Quote:

Originally Posted by maryhelena

Hi, Philosopher Jay

Just a further thought re your OP. Perhaps it's the Nativity gospel of James that is the switch over re the nativity gospel story referencing JtB or JC. And the change over is made by the figure Anna..........

In the Nativity gospel of James, Anna is the mother of Mary - not the mother of Zacharia and hence not the grandmother of John - as can be inferred from gLuke. That's the big switch! Anna becomes the mother of Mary! gLuke prefers to have Anna as the more neutral figure - the prophetess. However, by giving her 7 years of marriage and being in her 84th year - we are dealing with prophetic numbers. 84 minus 7 = 77 years. 70 +7. Perhaps indicating that we are not dealing with two contemporary figures, JtB and JC - but with two historical figures, living at different time periods, whose history has been fused into the gospel pseudo-historical figures of JC and JtB.

(and of course, gLuke is also indicating that 70 years between the 15th year of Tiberius and the rule of Lysanias of Abilene in 40 b.c. - and also working from the 15th year of Tiberius to the end of Pilate's rule in 36 ce - we have a 7 year period....About 77 years from the time when Herod the Great was made King in Rome, around 40 b.c. - until the end of Pilate's rule in 36/37 c.e.)

Quote:

Nativity gospel of James

And Mary was in the temple of the Lord as if she were a dove that dwelt there, and she received food from the hand of an angel. And when she was twelve years old there was held a council of the priests, saying: Behold, Mary has reached the age of twelve years in the temple of the Lord. What then shall we do with her, test perchance she defile the sanctuary of the Lord? And they said to the high priest: Thou standest by the altar of the Lord; go in, and pray concerning her; and whatever the Lord shall manifest unto thee, that also will we do. And the high priest went in, taking the robe with the twelve bells into the holy of holies; and he prayed concerning her. And behold an angel of the Lord stood by him, saying unto him: Zacharias, Zacharias, go out and assemble the widowers of the people, and let them bring each his rod; and to whomsoever the Lord shall show a sign, his wife shall she be. And the heralds went out through all the circuit of Judaea, and the trumpet of the Lord sounded, and all ran.

maryhelena · 07-08-2011, 11:53 PM

Hi, Philosopher Jay

So you think gLuke got cold feet re not giving any first prophecy regarding JC from a woman

The writer of the Nativity gospel of James was prepared to give a woman top slot in the nativity story - who knows maybe a woman wrote it.....

Quote:

And, behold, an angel of the Lord stood by her, saying to her: Salome, Salome, the Lord hath heard thee. Put thy hand to the infant, and carry it, and thou wilt have safety and joy. And Salome went and carried it, saying: I will worship Him, because a great King has been born to Israel. And, behold, Salome was immediately cured, and she went forth out of the cave justified. And behold a voice saying: Salome, Salome, tell not the strange things thou hast seen, until the child has come into Jerusalem.

21. And, behold, Joseph was ready to go into Judaea. And there was a great commotion in Bethlehem of Judaea, for Magi came, saying: Where is he that is born king of the Jews?

I've nothing against character combinations of course - just making a shout out for the female contribution in all of this prophecy story telling.....

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilosopherJay

Hi maryhelena,

It is interesting that he mentions these two numbers, seven years of marriage and she's 84 years old. What I thought about was that 14 was the age of marriage in the Roman world (it was 13 in the Jewish world). Thus it would be seventy years from the time she was married. I'm not sure, however how it all fits.

Anna or Hannah was the mother of Samuel. The book 1. Samuel tells how she turned him into a Nazorene (or Nazorite) because she was barren and God gave her the child. Samuel is a prophet and judge. He anoints both Saul and David as kings of Israel.

There is a problem in the text in that Anna is a prophetess and we don't get a chance to hear her prediction. Yet, we do hear the prophesies of the character Simeon. Simeon talks about being ready to die after seeing Jesus, but we never find out how old he is.

I suggest that Anna and Simeon were originally just one character. Luke has split them into two. He didn't want a woman portrayed as the first to predict Jesus' greatness.

Here is the Anna and Simeon text combined.

Quote:

36And there was a prophetess, Anna the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Asher. She was advanced in years and had lived with her husband [25And there was a man in Jerusalem whose name was Simeon;]
seven years after her marriage, 37and then as a widow to the age of eighty-four. and this [wo]man was righteous and devout, looking for the consolation of Israel; and the Holy Spirit was upon him [her]. 26And it had been revealed to him [her] by the Holy Spirit that [s]he would not see death before [s]he had seen the Lord’s Christ. 27And he came in the Spirit into the temple; and when the parents brought in the child Jesus, to carry out for Him the custom of the Law, 28then [s]he took Him into his[her] arms, and blessed God, and said,
29“Now Lord, You are releasing Your bond-servant to depart in peace,
According to Your word;
30For my eyes have seen Your salvation,
31Which You have prepared in the presence of all peoples,
32A LIGHT OF REVELATION TO THE GENTILES,
And the glory of Your people Israel.”
33And His father and mother were amazed at the things which were being said about Him. 34And Simeon [Elizabeth] blessed them and said to Mary His mother, “Behold, this Child is appointed for the fall and rise of many in Israel, and for a sign to be opposed— 35and a sword will pierce even your own soul—to the end that thoughts from many hearts may be revealed.”
She never left the temple, serving night and day with fastings and prayers. 38At that very moment she came up and began giving thanks to God, and continued to speak of Him to all those who were looking for the redemption of Jerusalem.

Warmly,

Jay Raskin

PhilosopherJay · 07-09-2011, 07:56 AM

Hi maryhelena,

Thanks for reminding me of the Nativity Gospel of James

It is amazing that Anna is the mother of Mary, here.
She seems to be a combination of Anna (Hanna) Samuel's mother and Nitzevet, David's mother. Nitzevet is not named in the Torah, but Mishna (redaction of the oral traditions) talks of her. See this. Apparently she was divorced by her husband after seven years. Anna in Luke becomes a widow after seven years of marriage.

The mother of David, Nitzevet, becomes Elizabeth, the mother of John in the story.

Anna gets changed into Mary or Mariam (Moses sister who was a prophetess). Thus Anna gets the name Mariam (the original prophetess in the Hebrew scriptures) and Mariam gets the name Anna (the original mother in the Hebrew Scriptures).

It seems to me that the original birth narrative was about the births of Samuel and David. Anna would be 21 years old (14 + 7 years of marriage) when she gives birth to Samuel. She lives long enough to see the birth of David, 63 years later. The original story linked the births of the prophet Samuel to the birth of the prophet David in Bethlehem

The shepherds in the story is the telltale sign that David's birth is being announced in the story.

Quote:

8In the same region there were some shepherds staying out in the fields and keeping watch over their flock by night. 9And an angel of the Lord suddenly stood before them, and the glory of the Lord shone around them; and they were terribly frightened. 10But the angel said to them, “Do not be afraid; for behold, I bring you good news of great joy which will be for all the people; 11for today in the city of David there has been born for you a Savior, who is Christ the Lord. 12“This will be a sign for you: you will find a baby wrapped in cloths and lying in a manger.” 13And suddenly there appeared with the angel a multitude of the heavenly host praising God and saying,

14“Glory to God in the highest,
And on earth peace among men with whom He is pleased.”

15When the angels had gone away from them into heaven, the shepherds began saying to one another, “Let us go straight to Bethlehem then, and see this thing that has happened which the Lord has made known to us.” 16So they came in a hurry and found their way to Mary and Joseph, and the baby as He lay in the manger. 17When they had seen this, they made known the statement which had been told them about this Child. 18And all who heard it wondered at the things which were told them by the shepherds. 19But Mary treasured all these things, pondering them in her heart. 20The shepherds went back, glorifying and praising God for all that they had heard and seen, just as had been told them.

This is the way that David is first introduced in 1 Samuel:

Quote:

11And Samuel said to Jesse, “Are these all the children?” And he said, “There remains yet the youngest, and behold, he is tending the sheep.” Then Samuel said to Jesse, “Send and bring him; for we will not sit down until he comes here.”
12So he sent and brought him in. Now he was ruddy, with beautiful eyes and a handsome appearance. And the LORD said, “Arise, anoint him; for this is he.” 13Then Samuel took the horn of oil and anointed him in the midst of his brothers; and the Spirit of the LORD came mightily upon David from that day forward. And Samuel arose and went to Ramah.

David was tending the sheep. We can assume that since Jesse lives in a city, the sheep are in a manger. To anybody reading the text, (at least in the First or Second Century CE in Israel) it appears that David is literally born in a manger, that is where he first appears.

It appears that the author of Luke has rearranged a text describing the births of Samuel and David to describe the births of John and Jesus. The original text does focus on the mothers, so it is probably written by a woman.

Warmly,

Jay Raskin

Quote:

Originally Posted by maryhelena

Hi, Philosopher Jay

So you think gLuke got cold feet re not giving any first prophecy regarding JC from a woman

The writer of the Nativity gospel of James was prepared to give a woman top slot in the nativity story - who knows maybe a woman wrote it.....

Quote:

And, behold, an angel of the Lord stood by her, saying to her: Salome, Salome, the Lord hath heard thee. Put thy hand to the infant, and carry it, and thou wilt have safety and joy. And Salome went and carried it, saying: I will worship Him, because a great King has been born to Israel. And, behold, Salome was immediately cured, and she went forth out of the cave justified. And behold a voice saying: Salome, Salome, tell not the strange things thou hast seen, until the child has come into Jerusalem.

21. And, behold, Joseph was ready to go into Judaea. And there was a great commotion in Bethlehem of Judaea, for Magi came, saying: Where is he that is born king of the Jews?

I've nothing against character combinations of course - just making a shout out for the female contribution in all of this prophecy story telling.....

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilosopherJay

Hi maryhelena,

It is interesting that he mentions these two numbers, seven years of marriage and she's 84 years old. What I thought about was that 14 was the age of marriage in the Roman world (it was 13 in the Jewish world). Thus it would be seventy years from the time she was married. I'm not sure, however how it all fits.

Anna or Hannah was the mother of Samuel. The book 1. Samuel tells how she turned him into a Nazorene (or Nazorite) because she was barren and God gave her the child. Samuel is a prophet and judge. He anoints both Saul and David as kings of Israel.

There is a problem in the text in that Anna is a prophetess and we don't get a chance to hear her prediction. Yet, we do hear the prophesies of the character Simeon. Simeon talks about being ready to die after seeing Jesus, but we never find out how old he is.

I suggest that Anna and Simeon were originally just one character. Luke has split them into two. He didn't want a woman portrayed as the first to predict Jesus' greatness.

Here is the Anna and Simeon text combined.

Warmly,

Jay Raskin

maryhelena · 07-09-2011, 08:11 AM

Wow, Philosopher Jay.....that's just great thinking.....

Yep, I like the idea of a woman being involved :blush: - what with all that messy birth stuff in the Nativity gospel of James.

Anyway, it's amazing what insights one can grasp once one jettisons the idea of a historical gospel JC.

Way to go.....:clapping:

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilosopherJay

Hi maryhelena,

Thanks for reminding me of the Nativity Gospel of James

It is amazing that Anna is the mother of Mary, here.
She seems to be a combination of Anna (Hanna) Samuel's mother and Nitzevet, David's mother. Nitzevet is not named in the Torah, but Mishna (redaction of the oral traditions) talks of her. See this. Apparently she was divorced by her husband after seven years. Anna in Luke becomes a widow after seven years of marriage.

The mother of David, Nitzevet, becomes Elizabeth, the mother of John in the story.

Anna gets changed into Mary or Mariam (Moses sister who was a prophetess). Thus Anna gets the name Mariam (the original prophetess in the Hebrew scriptures) and Mariam gets the name Anna (the original mother in the Hebrew Scriptures).

It seems to me that the original birth narrative was about the births of Samuel and David. Anna would be 21 years old (14 + 7 years of marriage) when she gives birth to Samuel. She lives long enough to see the birth of David, 63 years later. The original story linked the births of the prophet Samuel to the birth of the prophet David in Bethlehem

The shepherds in the story is the telltale sign that David's birth is being announced in the story.

Quote:

8In the same region there were some shepherds staying out in the fields and keeping watch over their flock by night. 9And an angel of the Lord suddenly stood before them, and the glory of the Lord shone around them; and they were terribly frightened. 10But the angel said to them, “Do not be afraid; for behold, I bring you good news of great joy which will be for all the people; 11for today in the city of David there has been born for you a Savior, who is Christ the Lord. 12“This will be a sign for you: you will find a baby wrapped in cloths and lying in a manger.” 13And suddenly there appeared with the angel a multitude of the heavenly host praising God and saying,

14“Glory to God in the highest,
And on earth peace among men with whom He is pleased.”

15When the angels had gone away from them into heaven, the shepherds began saying to one another, “Let us go straight to Bethlehem then, and see this thing that has happened which the Lord has made known to us.” 16So they came in a hurry and found their way to Mary and Joseph, and the baby as He lay in the manger. 17When they had seen this, they made known the statement which had been told them about this Child. 18And all who heard it wondered at the things which were told them by the shepherds. 19But Mary treasured all these things, pondering them in her heart. 20The shepherds went back, glorifying and praising God for all that they had heard and seen, just as had been told them.

This is the way that David is first introduced in 1 Samuel:

Quote:

11And Samuel said to Jesse, “Are these all the children?” And he said, “There remains yet the youngest, and behold, he is tending the sheep.” Then Samuel said to Jesse, “Send and bring him; for we will not sit down until he comes here.”
12So he sent and brought him in. Now he was ruddy, with beautiful eyes and a handsome appearance. And the LORD said, “Arise, anoint him; for this is he.” 13Then Samuel took the horn of oil and anointed him in the midst of his brothers; and the Spirit of the LORD came mightily upon David from that day forward. And Samuel arose and went to Ramah.

David was tending the sheep. We can assume that since Jesse lives in a city, the sheep are in a manger. To anybody reading the text, (at least in the First or Second Century CE in Israel) it appears that David is literally born in a manger, that is where he first appears.

It appears that the author of Luke has rearranged a text describing the births of Samuel and David to describe the births of John and Jesus. The original text does focus on the mothers, so it is probably written by a woman.

Warmly,

Jay Raskin

Quote:

Originally Posted by maryhelena

Hi, Philosopher Jay

So you think gLuke got cold feet re not giving any first prophecy regarding JC from a woman

The writer of the Nativity gospel of James was prepared to give a woman top slot in the nativity story - who knows maybe a woman wrote it.....

Quote:

And, behold, an angel of the Lord stood by her, saying to her: Salome, Salome, the Lord hath heard thee. Put thy hand to the infant, and carry it, and thou wilt have safety and joy. And Salome went and carried it, saying: I will worship Him, because a great King has been born to Israel. And, behold, Salome was immediately cured, and she went forth out of the cave justified. And behold a voice saying: Salome, Salome, tell not the strange things thou hast seen, until the child has come into Jerusalem.

21. And, behold, Joseph was ready to go into Judaea. And there was a great commotion in Bethlehem of Judaea, for Magi came, saying: Where is he that is born king of the Jews?

I've nothing against character combinations of course - just making a shout out for the female contribution in all of this prophecy story telling.....

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilosopherJay

Hi maryhelena,

It is interesting that he mentions these two numbers, seven years of marriage and she's 84 years old. What I thought about was that 14 was the age of marriage in the Roman world (it was 13 in the Jewish world). Thus it would be seventy years from the time she was married. I'm not sure, however how it all fits.

Anna or Hannah was the mother of Samuel. The book 1. Samuel tells how she turned him into a Nazorene (or Nazorite) because she was barren and God gave her the child. Samuel is a prophet and judge. He anoints both Saul and David as kings of Israel.

There is a problem in the text in that Anna is a prophetess and we don't get a chance to hear her prediction. Yet, we do hear the prophesies of the character Simeon. Simeon talks about being ready to die after seeing Jesus, but we never find out how old he is.

I suggest that Anna and Simeon were originally just one character. Luke has split them into two. He didn't want a woman portrayed as the first to predict Jesus' greatness.

Here is the Anna and Simeon text combined.

Warmly,

Jay Raskin

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