Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Saramago · 06-25-2011, 06:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by simon kole

Quote:

Originally Posted by Davka

Quote:

Originally Posted by simon kole

If we do not pay our debt (by his Son), we will be thrown into debtors' prison even though we are unable to pay (because he has provided payment). Justice will be exacted of us to the last penny (Mt 5:26, 18:34) by God who is our adversary until our debt is paid (Ro 5:10), and with whom we are warned to settle our accounts before they come into his court of (final) judgment (Mt 5:25).

And again humans have learned to be far more just than God. In the West, we abolished debtor's prison a long time ago, because we recognized how unjust the concept is. But BibleGod is still stuck in Bronze Age morality.

What's truly odd about this is that Jesus supposedly preached against Bronze Age Morality in the sermon on the mount (You have heard "an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth," but I say to you . . .). Jesus was supposedly telling people to forgive, love their enemies, bless those who curse them - and then turning around and asserting that BibleGod is not going to even try to follow BibleJesus' teachings. BibleGod will continue with an eye for an eye, cursing those who curse him, and generally acting like a small child.

The biggest contradictions in the Bible have to do with the supposed character of BibleGod. His actions as described in scripture do not match his character as described in scripture, and the evidence of BibleGod's Universe contradicts the evidence of BibleGod's Bible - making him either a liar or a trickster, but certainly not allowing him to be the kind of being the Bible describes.

Well stated, as usual.

One point: The slaughter and destruction in God's dealings with men is absolutely appalling. And that is the point.

Firstly, it shows how appalling is sin to God.
Secondly, it shows how awful will be that final destruction of sin.
Thirdly, the justice and truth of God are written in bloody script in parts of the Bible, for the convicting, or the confounding, of all those who mock at his threatenings. "Do not be deceived, God is not mocked." (Gal 6:7)

In other words: the blame falls squarely on the victim, not the perpetrator-creator.

Jarhyn · 06-25-2011, 06:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by simon kole

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jarhyn

shouting is perfectly acceptable when one side appears to not be listening. You still fail to address the PROVEN FACT that the bible is suspect, and the PROVEN FACT that quoting the bible is meaningless without providing corroboration consisting of publicly observable phenomenon.

What part of "my purview is limited to internal contradictions in the texts" do you not understand?

Evidently you are the one not listening (having no knowledge on the background of my addressing apparent Biblical contradictions here) that my purview is limited to internal contradictions in the texts of the Bible. Whether the texts are right, wrong, or indifferent is irrelevant to any contradiction among themselves. My purview does not extend to any perceived contradictions of the texts external to the Bible.

Now relax, you're heading for a stroke.
And I don't think it necessary to repeatedly explain this issue to you.

Quote:

You have failed to provide such corroborating evidence therefore all you have succeeded in doing is continuing to spout meaningless intellectual noise.

Well, when the texts are wrong, then all quoting them and worrying about their internal consistency does is fill the air, forum, or other medium with meaningless noise, which is all you have been doing. There's another word for spouting meaningless noise in an intellectual/rational forum such as this: intellectual dishonesty. The point of the OP is not JUST about the logical inconsistency of the bible in regards to itself; it is about it's logical inconsistency with everything, the bible, reality, etc. I couldn't really care less about it's inconsistency with itself in the light of it's inconsistency with reality.

simon kole · 06-25-2011, 07:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jarhyn

Quote:

Originally Posted by simon kole

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jarhyn

shouting is perfectly acceptable when one side appears to not be listening. You still fail to address the PROVEN FACT that the bible is suspect, and the PROVEN FACT that quoting the bible is meaningless without providing corroboration consisting of publicly observable phenomenon.

What part of "my purview is limited to internal contradictions in the texts" do you not understand?

Evidently you are the one not listening (having no knowledge on the background of my addressing apparent Biblical contradictions here) that my purview is limited to internal contradictions in the texts of the Bible. Whether the texts are right, wrong, or indifferent is irrelevant to any contradiction among themselves. My purview does not extend to any perceived contradictions of the texts external to the Bible.

Now relax, you're heading for a stroke.
And I don't think it necessary to repeatedly explain this issue to you.

Quote:

You have failed to provide such corroborating evidence therefore all you have succeeded in doing is continuing to spout meaningless intellectual noise.

Well, when the texts are wrong, then all quoting them and worrying about their internal consistency does is fill the air, forum, or other medium with meaningless noise, which is all you have been doing. There's another word for spouting meaningless noise in an intellectual/rational forum such as this: intellectual dishonesty. The point of the OP is not JUST about the logical inconsistency of the bible in regards to itself; it is about it's logical inconsistency with everything, the bible, reality, etc. I couldn't really care less about it's inconsistency with itself in the light of it's inconsistency with reality.

It's not all about you.

Davka posted an extensive list of internal contradictions in the texts.
He has the right to post internal contradictions, and I have the right to address internal contradictions.

Your vociferous dislike of it is irrelevaint.

dockeen · 06-25-2011, 07:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Davka

Well, Simon, you've done a wonderful job of describing who the Bible claims that God is, and why the world is so totally fucked up. Your explanation is quite accurate, actually. The God of the Bible is a sociopathic sadistic monster, and if we don't worship him he will fry us for eternity. He made us, so we better just shut up and obey.

Thank you. We see quite clearly who it is that you worship. Good thing he doesn't exist, or I'd be burned forever - because I am damned sure not going to kiss up to the Author of the Holocaust, the Plague, Sin, Hell, Torment, Child Prostitution, and every other horrific thing you care to name.

Here's the humorous part of this. I bet you dollars to navy beans that he thinks he is being really effective as Christ's representative here.

Davka · 06-25-2011, 07:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by simon kole

Quote:

Originally Posted by Davka

Quote:

Originally Posted by simon kole

If we do not pay our debt (by his Son), we will be thrown into debtors' prison even though we are unable to pay (because he has provided payment). Justice will be exacted of us to the last penny (Mt 5:26, 18:34) by God who is our adversary until our debt is paid (Ro 5:10), and with whom we are warned to settle our accounts before they come into his court of (final) judgment (Mt 5:25).

And again humans have learned to be far more just than God. In the West, we abolished debtor's prison a long time ago, because we recognized how unjust the concept is. But BibleGod is still stuck in Bronze Age morality.

What's truly odd about this is that Jesus supposedly preached against Bronze Age Morality in the sermon on the mount (You have heard "an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth," but I say to you . . .). Jesus was supposedly telling people to forgive, love their enemies, bless those who curse them - and then turning around and asserting that BibleGod is not going to even try to follow BibleJesus' teachings. BibleGod will continue with an eye for an eye, cursing those who curse him, and generally acting like a small child.

The biggest contradictions in the Bible have to do with the supposed character of BibleGod. His actions as described in scripture do not match his character as described in scripture, and the evidence of BibleGod's Universe contradicts the evidence of BibleGod's Bible - making him either a liar or a trickster, but certainly not allowing him to be the kind of being the Bible describes.

Well stated, as usual.

One point: The slaughter and destruction in God's dealings with men is absolutely appalling. And that is the point.

Firstly, it shows how appalling is sin to God.

Yet God created sin, and evil. Huh.

Quote:

Secondly, it shows how awful will be that final destruction of sin.

"Sinners in the hands of an angry god!"

Yeah, we got that. God is one big badass motherfucker, so don't be dissin' him or he will open up a can of whup-ass on your head.

Quote:

Thirdly, the justice and truth of God are written in bloody script in parts of the Bible, for the convicting, or the confounding, of all those who mock at his threatenings. "Do not be deceived, God is not mocked." (Gal 6:7)

Id God really existed, he would be the equivalent of a Supernatural Omnipotent Mob Boss.

"I gave youse dis Universe, and I can take it away, see? So wise up, or it's concrete overshoes for the lot of ya!" *grabs his bride by the arm* "C'mon toots, let's get outta here."

*bride, simpering* "Golly, Boss, you're so Big, and Mighty, and Strong!"

dockeen · 06-25-2011, 07:35 PM

Quote:

Yeah, we got that. God is one big badass motherfucker, so don't be dissin' him or he will open up a can of whup-ass on your head.

But only because he loves you.

As has been pointed out before, this god seems to have a lot in common with a
drunken wife and child abuser.

Saramago · 06-25-2011, 08:52 PM

god has a lot in common with a drunken wife??

Davka · 06-25-2011, 08:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saramago

god has a lot in common with a drunken wife??

Well, yeah!

I mean, who hasn't gotten their wife drunk and said "I worship you, baby!"?

Deus Ex · 06-25-2011, 09:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by simon kole

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deus Ex

Quote:

Originally Posted by simon kole

This one's for you, Wedge. (See http://www.freeratio.org/showpost.php?p=6828390, my last response there)

Basic Logical Inconsistency of the Bible

The Biblical doctrine of the absolute sovereignty of God appears to be incompatible (illogical) in regard to five areas of the Biblical doctrine on the moral responsiblity of mankind:

1) free will of mankind,
2) compromised free will of mankind,
3) justice of compromised mankind's moral responsibility for sin,
4) justice of mankind's moral responsbility for Adam's sin, and
5) justice of mankind's moral responsibility for acting as God determines him to act

In understanding the sovereignty of God in relation to the responsibility of man, the first consideration is the free will of man, for that is where the misunderstanding begins.

There is no misunderstanding. We know that Calvinists believe in compatibilism.

Well, how dare that Calvin, or anyone else for that matter, show the compatibility of Scripture with itself!

You misunderstood what I meant by

compatibilism, aka soft determinism.

We know that Calvinists believe in soft determinism, but soft determinism does nothing to exonerate God from being the author of sin.

dockeen · 06-25-2011, 09:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Davka

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saramago

god has a lot in common with a drunken wife??

Well, yeah!

I mean, who hasn't gotten their wife drunk and said "I worship you, baby!"?

Even more, my wife demands that sort of treatment all the time!

Hmmm, maybe my wife wasn't lying when she said she was a god(dess).

Now, I better go to bed before she who must be obeyed kicks my
but up around my ears!

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06-25-2011, 08:52 PM	#177
Saramago Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: ZIP 981XX Posts: 8,268	god has a lot in common with a drunken wife??

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