Biomystic

In a not so nice welcome to this forum I started a topic called the Prodigal God which some monitor decided to delete the topic from this thread where it belongs in order, it seems, to bury it in "Elsewhere".

If this forum cannot allow free speech and the free exchange of information then what good is it?

This thread is all about historical facts and I want it to have a chance to be discussed without censorship.

Abraham was the Hindu Vedic god Brahma. And Sarah, Abraham's wife was the the Hindu Vedic goddess of knowledge, Sarasvati.

There is proof so substantial that only those willing to ignore geological, geographical, linguistic, and historical facts will continue to believe the Genesis story of Abraham.

Biomystic

Hindu gods lost in translation



Brahma, the Hindu God of Creation, is Abraham.



Sarasvati, the Hindu Goddess of knowledge and wisdom as well as Brahma's consort, is Sarah, Abraham's wife.


I first came across the idea that Abraham and Brahma might be connected around 1999 but can't remember exactly where I saw it other than remembering doing an internet search on something and coming up with a site with this information. The site I think also connected Hammarabi to Abraham to Brahma as all variants of the same person.

In Hebrew, the names for Brahma and Abraham would be written the same way--BRHM--with the vowels excluded. But Krishna sounds and looks like Christ, so what of the similarity? And I put this information on my mental back burner until debating with Muslims on internet talkboards several years later and again ran across another Abraham-Brahma connection checking out some Hindu Vedic sites countering Islamic doctrines.

According to Sword of Truth, a Hindu Vedic website opposing Islam, Muhammad in his illiteracy, mistook the Meccan's Arabic Vedic worship of Brahma for honoring of the patriarch, Abraham.

The site claimed Muhammad's Islam has all sorts of Arabic Vedic worship connected with it, e.g. the Black Stone left alone of all the idols Muhammad destroyed in the Cabaa because it was part of his family's Shiva worship. The Black Stone is known as a "shivaling" to Hindus. They claimed even Muhammad's name derived from Hindu "Mahadeva" worship.

This information did register with me and went into the Achilles Heel catagory for Muhammad's Islam which you can read in the New Islam chapter. But at the time I didn't go any farther than that researching this Hindu Vedic connection to Islam.

It wasn't until about two weeks ago now that I ran across Gene Matlock's article connecting Abraham and Sara directly to Brahma and Saraisvati. Matlock uses the "Saraisvati" spelling of "Sarasvati" and I've seen his spelling of it posted on Hindu sites without complaint so I guess it can be so spelled. It certainly makes the linguistic connection even closer to Sarah, who was "Sarai" before God changed her name as They did Abraham's--from Abram to Abraham.

Gene Matlock's arguments for the Abraham/Sarah connection to Brahma/Saraisvati was utterly convincing to me after I did a Wikipedia search on the history of the Sarasvati River for whom the Goddess Saraisvati is named.

Once anyone who reads the Wikipedia material on the Hindu god and goddess, Brahma and Sarasvati, with any normal degree of objectivity and then learns about the history of the Sarasvati River and the ancient Brahmin community that moved out of the finally dry Sarasvati river system..well, it's all over.

The End Times information destroying the foundational stories of the Abrahamic faiths has arrived.

Matlock's article contains other sources within it so all this information about the Vedic roots of Abraham has been floating around in the cosmic Library but only now does it seem to be reaching minds that are responding appropriately.

I will try to summarize both Matlock's and Wikipedia's information here while specific references are to be found in their articles posted below.


What's in a name? Gods and Goddesses lost in translation

Matlock traces the connection between Abraham and Brahma linguistically and through study of the historical movements of ancient Indians out the Sarasvati river watershed. I could easily see how "Brahma" could be an anagram of "Abram" or "Abraham". Also with the name Saraisvati or Sarasvati being simliar to Sarah and Sarai.

But like police wisdom when ferreting out truthful information about a crime, it's in knowledge of the little hidden details that truth from lies is revealed.

..Those little hidden details--such as..

--knowing that in the Jewish Torah stories when a new god is introduced when a significant birth happens and/or a change of names occurs, e.g.

--the creation of Adam and Eve.

--when the Angel of God in the Bush tells Moses that that Our name is I AM yet it is the old name of EL that dropped from direct referral to God to be superseded by Yahweh.*

--Pauline Christianity's heavy hitters each go through a change of names at the advent of the new Christ god, Jesus. Simon becomes Peter, Saul becomes Paul.

--and Abram becomes Abraham, the father of many nations while Sarai becomes Sarah, miraculously bearing Isaac in her barren old age. God's are being switched around in these stories.

--Brahma is said also to be the son of the Supreme Being, Brahman. This relations of Son of God to God is the basis of the Messiah's relationship to God in the Abrahamic religions.

--Brahma is the lord of sacrifices.

--discovering that there was an ancient Sarasvati river civilization that gave rise to the earliest Vedic theology with its primary Hindu gods Brahma, Lord of Creation, Vishnu, Sustainer of Life, and Shiva, the Destroyer.

--learning that this Sarasvati river dried up after some series of cataclysmic events, earthquakes and drought somewhere between 4000 and 2000 BC forcing the Brahmin community or some segment of it out of the region to seek sustainable lands farther west and south.

--learning that while the god Brahma is still popularly worshiped in India there is only one temple dedicated to this god. There evidently are thousands dedicated to Vishnu and Shiva. Where'd the Brahmin temple people go?

--learning that Sarasvati is Brahma's consort and she is named after the ancient Sarasvati river that plays a prominent part in Hindu mythology.

--discovering there were two rivers that in ancient times combined together to form the main tributary of the old Sarasvati river--the Ghaggar-Hakra river. A combined name could easily be "Hagar", the name of the handmaiden of Sarah. This was the clincher for me.

--discovering that in the Hindu myth, Brahma marries his sister/lover, Goddess Sarasvati and seeing the comparison drawn to the Genesis story where Abram more or less claims in defense of his pimping his wife to the king of Gerar that she is really his sister.


Matlock and Wikipedia

I've gotten permission from Gene Matlock to post these excerpts from his articles. Also posted are relevant Wikipedia entries on Brahma and Sarasvati.

--"In his History of the Jews, the Jewish scholar and theologian Flavius Josephus (37 - 100 A.D.), wrote that the Greek philosopher Aristotle had said: "...These Jews are derived from the Indian philosophers; they are named by the Indians Calani." (Book I:22.)

Clearchus of Soli wrote, "The Jews descend from the philosophers of India. The philosophers are called in India Calanians and in Syria Jews. The name of their capital is very difficult to pronounce. It is called 'Jerusalem.'"

"Megasthenes, who was sent to India by Seleucus Nicator, about three hundred years before Christ, and whose accounts from new inquiries are every day acquiring additional credit, says that the Jews 'were an Indian tribe or sect called Kalani...'" (Anacalypsis, by Godfrey Higgins, Vol. I; p. 400.)

Martin Haug, Ph.D., wrote in The Sacred Language, Writings, and Religions of the Parsis, "The Magi are said to have called their religion Kesh-î-Ibrahim.They traced their religious books to Abraham, who was believed to have brought them from heaven." (p. 16.)

There are certain striking similarities between the Hindu god Brahma and his consort Saraisvati, and the Jewish Abraham and Sarai, that are more than mere coincidences. Although in all of India there is only one temple dedicated to Brahma, this cult is the third largest Hindu sect.
In his book Moisés y los Extraterrestres, Mexican author Tomás Doreste states, Voltaire was of the opinion that Abraham descended from some of the numerous Brahman priests who left India to spread their teachings throughout the world; and in support of his thesis he presented the following elements: the similarity of names and the fact that the city of Ur, land of the patriarchs, was near the border of Persia, the road to India, where that Brahman had been born.

The name of Brahma was highly respected in India, and his influence spread throughout Persia as far as the lands bathed by the rivers Euphrates and Tigris. The Persians adopted Brahma and made him their own. Later they would say that the God arrived from Bactria, a mountainous region situated midway on the road to India. (pp. 46-47.) Bactria (a region of ancient Afghanistan) was the locality of a prototypical Jewish nation called Juhuda or Jaguda, also called Ur-Jaguda. Ur meant "place or town." Therefore, the bible was correct in stating that Abraham came from "Ur of the Chaldeans." "Chaldean," more correctly Kaul-Deva (Holy Kauls), was not the name of a specific ethnicity but the title of an ancient Hindu Brahmanical priestly caste who lived in what are now Afghanistan, Pakistan, and the Indian state of Kashmir. "The tribe of Ioud or the Brahmin Abraham, was expelled from or left the Maturea of the kingdom of Oude in India and, settling in Goshen, or the house of the Sun or Heliopolis in Egypt, gave it the name of the place which they had left in India, Maturea." (Anacalypsis; Vol. I, p. 405.) "He was of the religion or sect of Persia, and of Melchizedek."(Vol. I, p. 364.) "The Persians also claim Ibrahim, i.e. Abraham, for their founder, as well as the Jews. Thus we see that according to all ancient history the Persians, the Jews, and the Arabians are descendants of Abraham.(p.85) ...We are told that Terah, the father of Abraham, originally came from an Eastern country called Ur, of the Chaldees or Culdees, to dwell in a district called Mesopotamia. Some time after he had dwelt there, Abraham, or Abram, or Brahma, and his wife Sara or Sarai, or Sara-iswati, left their father's family and came into Canaan. The identity of Abraham and Sara with Brahma and Saraiswati was first pointed out by the Jesuit missionaries."(Vol. I; p. 387.)

--In Hindu mythology, Sarai-Svati is Brahm's sister. The bible gives two stories of Abraham. In this first version, Abraham told Pharaoh that he was lying when he introduced Sarai as his sister. In the second version, he also told the king of Gerar that Sarai was really his sister. However, when the king scolded him for lying, Abraham said that Sarai was in reality both his wife and his sister! "...and yet indeed she is my sister; she is the daughter of my father, but not the daughter of my mother; and she became my wife." (Genesis 20:12.)

But the anomalies don't end here. In India, a tributary of the river Saraisvati is Ghaggar. Another tributary of the same river is Hakra. According to Jewish traditions, Hagar was Sarai's maidservant; the Moslems say she was an Egyptian princess. Notice the similarities of Ghaggar, Hakra and Hagar.

The bible also states that Ishmael, son of Hagar, and his descendants lived in India. "...Ishmael breathed his last and died, and was gathered to his kin... They dwelt from Havilah (India), by Shur, which is close to Egypt, all the way to Asshur." (Genesis 25:17-18.) It is an interesting fact that the names of Isaac and Ishmael are derive from Sanskrit: (Hebrew) Ishaak = (Sanskrit) Ishakhu = "Friend of Shiva." (Hebrew) Ishmael = (Sanskrit) Ish-Mahal = "Great Shiva."
About 1900 BC, the cult of Brahm was carried to the Middle and Near East by several different Indian groups after a severe rainfall and earthquake tore Northern India apart, even changing the courses of the Indus and Saraisvati rivers. The classical geographer Strabo tells us just how nearly complete the abandonment of Northwestern India was. "Aristobolus says that when he was sent upon a certain mission in India, he saw a country of more than a thousand cities, together with villages, that had been deserted because the Indus had abandoned its proper bed." (Strabo's Geography, XV.I.19.)

"The drying up of the Sarasvati around 1900 BCE, which led to a major relocation of the population centered around in the Sindhu and the Sarasvati valleys, could have been the event that caused a migration westward from India. It is soon after this time that the Indic element begins to appear all over West Asia, Egypt, and Greece."

(Indic Ideas in the Graeco-Roman World, by Subhash Kak, taken from IndiaStar online literary magazine; p.14)

--Indian historian Kuttikhat Purushothama Chon believes that Abraham was driven out of India. He states that the Aryans, unable to defeat the Asuras (The mercantile caste that once ruled in the Indus Valley or Harappans) spent so many years fighting covertly against the Asuras, such as destroying their huge system of irrigation lakes, causing destructive flooding, that Abraham and his kindred just gave up and marched to West Asia. (See Remedy the Frauds in Hinduism.) Therefore, besides being driven out of Northern India by floods, the Aryans also forced Indian merchants, artisans, and educated classes to flee to West Asia.

In India, the Hittites were also known as Cedis or Chedis (pronounced Hatti or Khetti). Indian historians classify them as one of the oldest castes of the Yadavas. "The Cedis formed one of the most ancient tribes among the Ksatriyas (the aristocratic class made up of Hittites and Kassites) in early Vedic times. As early as the period of the Rgveda the Cedi kings had acquired great reknown... they are one of the leading powers in northern India in the great epic." (Yadavas Through the Ages, p. 90.) Ram or Rama also belonged to the Yadava clan. If our Abraham, Brahm, and Ram are the one and the same person, Abraham went to Jerusalem to be with his own people!

--Ram's congregations segregated themselves in their own communities, called Ayodhya, which in Sanskrit means "The Unconquerable." The Sanskrit word for "fighter" is Yuddha or Yudh. Abraham and his group belonged to the Ayodhya (Yehudiya, Judea) congregation who remained aloof from non-believers and Amalekites (Aryans?).

*-from The Dictionary of the Kashmiri Language by George A. Grierson, pg. 865
Sadakh – A magician; one possessed of supernational powers; esp. of powers gained by worshipping a deity or uttering charms. Sudakshen – Name of a son of a king of Kashi or Kasi. In Sanskrit, it is Sadaksina or Sudaksina Melik or Malik is a North Indian and Kashmiri term for King; Lord; Master. He was a teacher of Brahma, a son of Krishna and father of Maheshvar.

why doesn't History mention them?

The exodus of refugees out of ancient India did not occur all at once but over a period of one or more thousand years. If all these refugee ruling peoples were exclusively of Indian heritage, why doesn't History mention them? Indeed they are mentioned as Kassites, Hittites, Syrians, Assyrians, Hurrians, Arameans, Hyksos, Mittanians, Amalekites, Aethiops (Atha-Yop), Phoenicians, Chaldeans, and many others. But we have been wrongly taught to regard them as ethnicities indigenous to Western Asia. Our history books also call them "Indo-Europeans," causing us to wonder where they were really from. "The people of India came to realize their social identity in terms of Varna and Jati (societal functions or caste); not in terms of races and tribes." (Foundations of Indian Culture; p. 8.)

Here's an example of how the ancient Indians identified people: The leaders were called Khassis (Kassites), Kushi (Kushites), Cossacks (Russian military caste) Caesars (Roman ruling caste), Hattiya (Hittites), Cuthites (a dialectical form of Hittite), Hurrite (another dialectical form of Hittite), Cathay (Chinese leaders), Kasheetl/Kashikeh among the Aztecs, Kashikhel/Kisheh by the Mayans, and Keshuah/Kush by the Incas. The Assyrians (in English), Asirios (in Spanish), Asuras or Ashuras (India), Ashuriya, Asuriya (Sumer and Babylonia), Asir (Arabia), Ahura (Persia), Suré in Central Mexico, etc., were people who worshipped Surya (the Sun).
Naturally, in areas where this religion prevailed, they were known as "Assyrians," no matter what the real names of their respective kingdoms were.

Another problem that western scholars have in identifying the Indo-Europeans as Indians is that India was not then and never was a nation. Furthermore, it is not "India." It is Bharata, and even Bharata is not a nation. Bharata is a collection of nations, just as Europe is a collection of nations, presently held together by the real or perceived threat of Moslem expansionism. Indian scholars have told me that when and if this expansionism ever disappears, the "Bharata Union" will again splinter into many smaller nations.

"The Arabian historians contend that Brahma and Abraham, their ancestor, are the same person. The Persians generally called Abraham Ibrahim Zeradust. Cyrus considered the religion of the Jews the same as his own. The Hindoos must have come from Abraham, or the Israelites from Brahma..." (Anacalypsis; Vol. I, p. 396.)

--Gene D. Matlock, B.A, M.A.


--From Wikipedia

Brahma

--Brahma (Sanskrit masculine brahman-, nominative brahma ???????, personification of the neuter brahman-) is the Hindu god (deva) of creation and one of the Trimurti, the others being Vishnu and Shiva. He is not to be confused with the Supreme Cosmic Spirit in Hindu Vedanta philosophy known as Brahman. Also, in Sanskrit Grammer, Brahman is Nominative Singular of generic word Brahman, as Aatma is Nominative Singular for Aatman. Brahaman and Aatman are same in Vedanta Philosphy, the Para-Aatma (Supersoul) and Jeeva Aatma (Individual Soul) are Brahman. His consort is Saraswati, the goddess of learning. Brahma is often identified with Prajapati, a Vedic deity.

--Appearance

Brahma is traditionally depicted with four heads and four faces and four arms. With each head he continually recites one of the four Vedas. He is often depicted with a white beard (especially in North India), indicating the near eternal nature of his existence. He is shown as having four arms, with none holding a weapon, unlike most other Hindu Gods. One of his hands is shown holding a scepter in the form of a spoon, which is associated with the pouring of holy ghee or oil into a sacrificial pyre - indicating the fact that Brahma is the lord of sacrifices.

--Creation

According to the Puranas, Brahma is self-born (without mother) in the lotus flower which grew from the navel of Vishnu at the beginning of the universe. This explains his name Nabhija (born from the navel). Another legend says that Brahma was born in water. In this he deposited a seed that later became the golden egg. From this golden egg, Brahma the creator was born, as Hiranyagarbha. The remaining materials of this golden egg expanded into the Brahm-anda or Universe. Being born in water, Brahma is also called Kanja (born in water). Brahma is said also to be the son of the Supreme Being, Brahman and the female energy known as Prakrti or Maya.

--Lack of Brahma worship in India

India today has but three temples dedicated to Brahmdev alone as opposed to the thousands of temples dedicated to the other deities in the Trimurti: Shiva and Vishnu. The more famous one being at Pushkar in Rajasthan state.
There are various stories in Hindu mythology that talks of the curse that has prevented Brahma from being worshipped on Earth.

--According to Brahma Purana and Hindu cosmology, Brahma is the creator but not necessarily regarded as God in Hinduism. He is mostly regarded as a creation of God / Brahman. The lifespan of Brahma is 100 Brahma years or 311 trillion human years. At the end of his lifespan, there is a gap of 100 Brahma years after which another Brahma or creator begins anew and the process is repeated forever. For this reason, Brahma might be considered only as a creator who is the executor of the order from the Supreme being - The Brahman.

--Temples

Although Brahma is prayed to in almost all Hindu religious rites, there are very few temples dedicated to him in India, the more prominent of which is at Pushkar, close to Ajmer. Once a year, on the full moon night of the Hindu lunar month of Kartika (October - November), a religious festival is held in Brahma's honour. Thousands of pilgrims come to bathe in the holy lake adjacent to the temple.

--Vehicle

Brahma's vehicle is a divine Swan. This divine bird is bestowed with a virtue called Neera-Ksheera Viveka or the ability to separate milk and water from a mixture of the two. The significance of this is that justice should be dispensed to all creatures, however entwined it might be in a situation. Also, this virtue indicates that one should learn to separate the good from the evil and then accept that which is valuable and discard that which is worthless or evil.

Sarasvati River

--The Sarasvati River (Sanskrit: sárasvati nadi ??????? ???) is one of the chief Rigvedic rivers mentioned in ancient Hindu texts. The Nadistuti hymn in the Rigveda (10.75) mentions the Sarasvati between the Yamuna in the east and the Sutlej in the west, and later Vedic texts like Tandya and Jaiminiya Brahmanas as well as the Mahabharata mention that the Sarasvati dried up in a desert. The goddess Sarasvati was originally a personification of this river, but later developed an independent identity and meaning.

Most scholars agree that at least some of the references to the Sarasvati in the Rigveda refer to the Ghaggar-Hakra River, while the Helmand is often quoted as the locus of the early Rigvedic river. Whether such a transfer of the name has taken place, either from the Helmand to the Ghaggar-Hakra, or conversely from the Ghaggar-Hakra to the Helmand, is a matter of dispute.
There is also a small present-day Sarasvati River (Sarsuti) that joins the Ghaggar river.

Brahmanas

--The first reference to a drying up of the Sarasvati is from the Brahmanas, texts that are composed in Vedic Sanskrit, but dating to a later date than the Veda Samhitas. The Jaiminiya Brahmana (2.297) speaks of the 'diving under (upamajjana) of the Sarasvati', and the Tandya Brahmana calls this the 'disppearance' (vinasana). The same text (25.10.11-16) records that the Sarasvati is 'so to say meandering' (kubjimati) as it could not sustain heaven which it had propped up. The distance between the Plaksa Prasravana (place of appearance/source of the river)[7] and the Vinasana (place of disappearance of the river) is said to be 44 asvina (between several hundred and 1600 miles) (Tandya Br. 25.10.16; cf. Av. 6.131.3; Pancavimsa Br.[8]). [9][10]

In the Shatapatha Brahmana (1.4.1.10 sqq) there is a description of the god Agni burning out rivers, which may be a reference to the drying up of rivers.

Ghaggar-Hakra River

--Both 19th and 20th century fieldwork (Marc Aurel Stein and recent satellite imagery suggest that the Ghaggar-Hakra river in the undetermined past had the Sutlej and the Yamuna as its tributaries. Geological changes diverted the Sutlej towards the Indus and the Yamuna towards the Ganga, and the formerly great river (the Rann of Kutch is likely the remains of its delta) did not have enough water to reach the sea anymore and dried up in the Thar desert. This change is estimated by geologists to have occurred between 5000 and 3000 BC,[18] that is, before the Mature Harappan period. It is sometimes proposed that the Sarasvati of the early Rigveda corresponds to the Ghaggar-Hakra before these changes took place (the "Old Ghaggar"), and the late Vedic end Epic Sarasvati disappearing in the desert to the Ghaggar-Hakra following the diversion of Sutlej and Yamuna, but the 4th millennium date of the event far predates even high estimates of the age of the Rigveda.

The identification of the Vedic Sarasvati River with the Ghaggar-Hakra River was already accepted by Christian Lassen[19] and Max Müller[20] and Marc Aurel Stein. However, an alternate view has located the early Sarasvati River in Afghanistan. The identity of the dried-up Ghaggar-Hakra with the late Vedic and post-Vedic Sarasvati is widely accepted. The identification of the early Rigvedic Sarasvati with the Old Ghaggar is another matter, and the subject of dispute. Kochhar (1999) lists a number of reasons conflicting with the identification:

Saraswati, goddess of knowledge

Consort: Brahma
Mount: swan, peacock

--In Hinduism, Saraswati (Sanskrit ??????? sarasvati) is one of the goddesses, the other two being Lakshmi and Durga, that form the female counterpart of the Trimurti. Saraswati has been regarded as a river goddess and in recent times a goddess of knowledge, music and the arts. She is the consort of Brahma, the Hindu god of creation.

Saraswati as a river

--The Rigvedic hymns dedicated to Saraswati mention her as a mighty river with creative, purifying, and nourishing properties. The best theory regarding the Vedic Sarasvati River states that it was formed by the present headwaters of the Yamuna River. In ancient times, after they had left the Himalayan foothills, the waters of the Yamuna turned west instead of east at Paonta Saheb. Next, the river flowed southwest across the Punjab and Haryana regions along the course of the modern Ghaggar-Hakra River in a pathway roughly parallel to the smaller Indus River to its west. The Sutlej flowed further east than it does today, and joined the Sarasvati somewhere near Bahawalpur. Eventually, the wide river emptied into the Rann of Kutch, which at the time was a more integral part of the Arabian Sea.

Along the course of the Sarasvati, the Harappan Civilization developed. The earliest known examples of writing in India have been found in the ruined cities that line the now dry riverbed of the ancient waterway. Some have postulated that the goddess Saraswati gained her role as personified communication and the giver of knowledge due to the role of the Sarasvati River in the development of written language in ancient India.

Between 2000 B.C. and 1700 B.C., seismic activity caused the waters of the river's two main sources to change course. The Sutlej moved course westward and became a tributary of the Indus River. The Yamuna moved course eastward and became a tributary of the Ganges. The tremendous loss of water which resulted from these movements caused the once mighty river to become sluggish and dry up in the Thar Desert without ever reaching the sea. Without any water for irrigation or transportation, the dense population of the river basin soon shifted east with the waters of the Yamuna to the Ganges River valley. Late Vedic texts record the river as disappearing at Vinasana (literally, "the disappearing"), and as joining both the Yamuna and Ganges as an invisible river. Some claim that the sanctity of the modern Ganges is directly related to its assumption of the holy, life-giving waters of the ancient Sarasvati.

Recently, archaeologists using satellite images have been able to trace the course of the river. A small channel of water flows near Kurukshetra. A nearby signboard denoting the former path of the once great Sarasvati River can be seen along the main highway (GT road).

Origins and context in Hinduism

--In the Rig-Veda (6,61,7), Saraswati is credited, in association with Indra, with killing the serpentine being Vritraasura, a demon which hoarded all of the earth's water and so represents drought, darkness, and chaos. She is often seen as equivalent to other Vedic goddesses such as Vak, Savitri, and Gayatri. Saraswati represents intelligence, consciousness, cosmic knowledge, creativity, education, enlightenment, music, the arts, and power. She is not only worshipped for secular knowledge, but for the true divine knowledge essential to achieve moksha. She is also referred to as Shonapunya, a Sanskrit word meaning ‘one purified of blood’.

--In some Puranas (like Skanda Purana) she is associated with Shiva and in some Tantras with Ganesha.

According to Brahma Vaivarta Purana 2.6.13-95 Vishnu has three wives, who constantly quarrel with each other, so that eventually, he keeps only Lakshmi, giving Ganga to Shiva and Saraswati to Brahma. Saraswati Stuthi states that she is the only Goddess to be revered by all the three great gods of Hinduism, Brahma, Vishnu, and Shiva as well as the asuras (demons), the gandharvas (the divine musicians), and the nagas (the divine serpents).

--The original (spiritual) forms of devas including Saraswati are present in the spiritual world:

--As a river/water goddess, Saraswati symbolizes fertility and prosperity. She is associated with purity and creativity, especially in the context of communication, such as in literary and verbal skills. In the post-Vedic age, She began to lose her status as a river goddess and became increasingly associated with literature, arts, music, etc. Her name literally means "the one who flows", which apparently was applied to thoughts, words, or the flow of a river (in Sanskrit: "dhaara-pravaah").

--Goddess Saraswati is often depicted as a beautiful, yellow-skinned woman dressed in pure white often seated on a white lotus (although Her actual vahana is believed to be a swan), which symbolizes that she is founded in the experience of the Absolute Truth. Thus, she not only has the knowledge but also the experience of the Highest Reality. She is mainly associated with the color white, which signifies the purity of true knowledge. Occasionally, however, she is also associated with the colour yellow, the colour of the flowers of the mustard plant that bloom at the time of her festival in the spring. She is not adorned heavily with jewels and gold, unlike the goddess Lakshmi, but is dressed modestly--perhaps representing her preference of knowledge over worldly material things.

--She is generally shown to have four arms, which represent the four aspects of human personality in learning: mind, intellect, alertness, and ego. She is shown to hold the following in her hands:

* A book, which is the sacred Vedas, representing the universal, divine, eternal, and true knowledge as well as her perfection of the sciences and the scriptures.

* A mala of white pearls, representing the power of meditation and spirituality.

* A pot of sacred water, representing creative and purificatory powers.

* The veena, a musical instrument that represents her perfection of all arts and sciences. Saraswati is also associated with anuraga, the love for and rhythm of music which represents all emotions and feelings expressed in speech or music. It is believed that children born with that name will prove to be very lucky in their studies."


John and Jesus knew

Out of all the Abrahamic prophets only two show any awareness that something was wrong with Abraham. These two prophets are John the Baptist and Jesus Christ.


John the Baptist

"But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them, 'Brood of vipers! Who has warned you to flee from the wrath to come? Therefore bear fruits worthy of repentance.

And do not think to say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham as our father.' For I say to you that God is able to raise up children to Abraham from these stones.

And even now the ax is laid to the root of the trees. Therefore every tree which does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire."

-Matthew 3:7-10

Jesus

"I know that you are Abraham's descendants, but you seek to kill me because my word has no place in you. I speak what I have seen with my Father, and you do what you have seen with your father.

They answered and said to him, 'Abraham is our father.' Jesus said to them, 'If you were Abraham's children, you would do the works of Abraham. But now you seek to kill me, a man who has told you the truth which I heard from God. Abraham did not do this."

-John 8:37-40

"Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.

Most assuredly I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM."

-John 8:58


Abraham was insane

Now the truth of Abraham's insanity can be told. All three traditional Abrahamic religions base their piety on Abraham's willingness to sacrifice his own son in order to obey God. While this concept was acceptable to ancient minds as ultimate proof of loyalty to God, in our times this act of Abraham would be considered criminally insane and would rightfully land Abraham in prison for extreme child abuse.

That any god could give such an order to a father only shows the insanity of that god's mind as well. Especially so when in the end this god of Abraham (who is another god let us not forget) tells Abraham, "April Fool! I was only kidding! Your son can live. Use a ram next time."

The fact that extreme mental illness marks "righteous" belief for all Abrahamic faithful must be now be never ignored as it has been for thousands of years by Abrahamic true believers.

God, the true Most High, guides humanity towards becoming true humane beings and those who bear true witness of God Most High lead humanity towards peace and harmony, good will towards all.

God Most High was never a war god choosing sides but the Creator and heavenly Father of all humankind.


Conclusions

True believers will not believe this information changes anything. But for those who think deeply about their religious beliefs this throws Abrahamic traditions into the realm of other pagan religious mythologies, i.e. totally destroys the "monotheism" of Judaism, Pauline Christianity, and Islam.

I am Christian, thoroughly believing in the Spirit of Christ, yet I am also thoroughly gnostic, believing that salvation lies in spiritual knowledge of God and not in blind faith in the words of men.

This newest historical revelation of the Hindu roots of the Abrahamic faith justifies the Gnostic path that never did rely strictly on the Torah, Tanakh, as the only source of spiritual knowledge of God.

Smullyan-esque

Posting a giant screed like this is likely to get you moved to ~Elsewhere~ again. If you think that is "censorship", then you need to read your forum rules. You know, those things you agreed to when you signed up? Read them.

This is a discussion board, and what you have posted here is not at attempt at discussion. This is more of a thesis, or just plain preaching.

Toto

Prodigal God

premjan

Here's what I posted in the other thread:

Sanskrit tends to lend itself to this sort of etymological wordplay (probably because it uses very abbreviated word roots - is that a bit like Chinese anyone?) and there is literally tons of pseudo-accurate stuff like this, most of which is nationalistically motivated literature by Hindus.

Saraswati means "watery" referring to the watery river (one of large drainage), and I have never heard of it being referred to as "Sarai" though "Sarai" nowadays in Hindi means "road". Abraham AFAIK was a resident of Mesopotamia so it is the wrong set of rivers, as the now-dry Saraswati (ghaggar-hakra) is located near the Indus though some have claimed a similar river in Iran and there is one sometimes referred to as Saraswati in Afghanistan.

There were some Indo-Aryans living in the Holy Land and Mesopotamia area at one point called the Mitanni so it is barely possible that some cultural elements were borrowed, or even that Abraham came from this group - but they were mainly a ruling class I think.

Brahma is the generic name for the creator God. What does "Abraham" mean?

Muhammad means praiseworthy, and Mahadeva doesn't - Maha means great or large, and Deva means God, and it is a synonym for Shiva. Islam is very much in the Semitic tradition which has basic philosophical differences from the Indo-European tradition, so one can't just smudge the two together. It is perfectly possible that there was a version of Shiva being worshipped in polytheistic Mecca (I have not seen a full list of the 72 idols that were worshipped there). The little black stone could be a symbol of Shiva, though the latter tend to be little upright cylinders with rounded tops and a sort of bowl base - it is a stylized representation of male and female genitalia in coitus.

The dress worn for pilgrimage in Mecca is indeed evocative of the garments Hindus wear at religious ceremonies, so there could be some cultural link there.

I have seen some speculation that the (some?) Jews are descendants of an itinerant technically-oriented (nonphilosopher) Hindu upper caste worshipping the creator God called Vipras. But the Jews for sure appear to have no such memory. There certainly were some Jewish people living in India after the disbanding of Israel in Jesus's era and St. (doubting) Thomas is said by some to have visited India.

So basically, Gene Matlock is closer to Salman Rushdie in the spirit of his work (magical historicism maybe) than conventional history, which itself tends to be fraught with difficulties in its study.

Biomystic

What I posted, if you read it, contained mostly selected quotes from Gene Matlock's paper and Wikipedia. This is a very important subject and how else do I introduce than by introducing the main thesis? Should I have chopped it up in sound bite forms for your benefit?

It's information for basing a discussion on and therefore appropriate.

Biomystic

or so has been my brief experience trying to introduce it on several religious discussion forums.

Abrahamic believers do not want to hear that they've been bamboozled for over 2500 years and their religions contain virtually zero spiritual authority if the god(s) of the monotheistic Abrahamic religions cannot distinguish between polytheistic Hindu Vedic gods and human beings. Kinda throws scriptural credibility out the window.

This historical news has some critical consequences, namely, the ideology of Zionism is made kaput by the fact that any promise of exclusive possession of the land of Canaan made by a god of Abraham promised to a Hindu god posing as a Hebrew man is so absurd as to be laughable.

Likewise, Muhammad's fiercely monotheistic Islam being based on the supposed act of righteousness of Abraham's willingness to sacrifice his son Ishmael is rendered ridiculous when Abraham is a polytheistic Hindu god.

Remember, this information is being brought to you by Christians and not by atheists or secular humanists with a well-deserved ideological ax to grind against Abrahamic religionists and their god-awful trail of death and destruction through history.

Clouseau

The idea that the god-awful trail might be the work of anti-Christians never enters the minds of anti-Christians.

gstafleu

Biomystic,

it is generally accepted that Abraham was not a real historical person, but rather was a myth, as was the exodus and Moses. There is a book that explains this in great detail, The Bible Unearthed, by Finkelstein and Silberman. Similarly, it is widely accepted that the Hindu pantheon are not real, physical, entities either, but rather they belong to the world of myth.

So the first question would be the following. Are you positing Abraham and/or Brahma as real entities, IOW there is a real Brahma who was toddling around in the Near East a few thousand years ago? Or are you saying that the Hindu and Hebrew mythologies are related, specifically in the sense that the Hebrew myth of Abraham is derived from the Hindu myth of Brahma et al?

If so, you need do come up with more than just a name correspondence, the myths themselves should also correspond. Plus, if you're going for a straight derivation, you need to show the historical path along which that was accomplished. The book I referred to above shows how one goes about something like that, in this case starting from archeology.

The next question is what kind of interest do you have in the subject. When it comes to religion and mythology there are basically two kinds of interest. One is a scholarly interest which does not stem from a religious background. If this is your kind of interest you might be interested in the discipline of comparative mythology. A good start in the field is given by the books of Joseph Campbell, e.g. The Hero with a Thousand Faces, and his four-volume Masks of God series. These books show how one establishes relationships between various mythologies, what they mean, when one can say something is derived from something else, when things share common roots, and so on.

The other kind of interest is religion-driven. E.g. you are a Hindu, and you think the Hindu religion is in some historical sense true and real (thus making the same mistake as the Abrahamists have institutionalized, but that is a different story ), and you want to convince others, in this case adherents to the Abrahamistic religions, of this. In that case you are in a good news / bad news scenario. The good news is that you can in essence make up your arguments as you go, the bad news is that you will be tottering on the edge of the lunatic fringe.

This forum, needless to say, tries to occupy itself with the scholarly, non-religion driven, way of looking at things (or at least it sometimes tries to do so ).

Gerard Stafleu

Clouseau

Would you mind posting arrant bullshit in the right direction? Thank you.