Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Malachi151 · 12-16-2006, 06:19 AM

#1) Am I correct that Joshua and Jesus are really the same exact name?

Here are the references to Joshua:

http://www.biblegateway.com/keyword/...1=31&bookset=2

Now take:

Quote:

Joshua to Succeed Moses
12 Then the LORD said to Moses, "Go up this mountain in the Abarim range and see the land I have given the Israelites. 13 After you have seen it, you too will be gathered to your people, as your brother Aaron was, 14 for when the community rebelled at the waters in the Desert of Zin, both of you disobeyed my command to honor me as holy before their eyes." (These were the waters of Meribah Kadesh, in the Desert of Zin.)

15 Moses said to the LORD, 16 "May the LORD, the God of the spirits of all mankind, appoint a man over this community 17 to go out and come in before them, one who will lead them out and bring them in, so the LORD's people will not be like sheep without a shepherd."

18 So the LORD said to Moses, "Take Joshua son of Nun, a man in whom is the Spirit, and lay your hand on him. 19 Have him stand before Eleazar the priest and the entire assembly and commission him in their presence. 20 Give him some of your authority so the whole Israelite community will obey him. 21 He is to stand before Eleazar the priest, who will obtain decisions for him by inquiring of the Urim before the LORD. At his command he and the entire community of the Israelites will go out, and at his command they will come in."

22 Moses did as the LORD commanded him. He took Joshua and had him stand before Eleazar the priest and the whole assembly. 23 Then he laid his hands on him and commissioned him, as the LORD instructed through Moses.

If Joshua = Yeshua and Jesus = Iesous = Yeshua

then wouldn't this be a likely inspiration for "Jesus the anointed" as savior?

Clivedurdle · 12-16-2006, 06:36 AM

I also would like to develop the concept of annointed or annointing war priest king. Joshua does fit that.

It would be logical that such a person would be a "son of David" who is clearly described as a highly trained and skilled warrior who became king. The priestly stuff is a bit vague - should be Levites and Cohens but hey, Cyrus got pulled in, so we can leave some wiggle room.

But the gospels, Paul do not describe a warrior priest king - Revelation does and Paul, Hebrews have bits of this - every knee shall bow.

If there is an historic Jesus I think he has to be a warrior priest king - who best fits that?

Flashbacks to Joshua, David, whoever else in a syncretic way makes more sense.

Although when and where and why the Jewish Hercules got castrated is an interesting question. Many Eunuchs continued as very successful generals - why Gospel Jesus does not is a fascinating question!

Toto · 12-16-2006, 04:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malachi151

#1) Am I correct that Joshua and Jesus are really the same exact name?

Yes. The Septuagint uses IESOUS for Hebrew characters named Joshua

Quote:

. . .
If Joshua = Yeshua and Jesus = Iesous = Yeshua

then wouldn't this be a likely inspiration for "Jesus the anointed" as savior?

You are not the first to have this idea. See The Fabrication of the Christ Myth by Leidner

gstafleu · 12-16-2006, 05:07 PM

Joshua was the inspiration for several "Jesus types." The following is from Robert Price's Deconstructing Jesus.

In the chapter "The Historicized Jesus" he has a section "Joshua Messiahs" (note that this translates to "Jesus Christs").The section title is based on the Messianic claimants Theudas and the Egyptian. Theudas threatened to part the river Jordan for his followers, the Egyptian threatened to bring down the wall of Jerusalem (they didn't get very far, the Romans got wind of the plans and scattered the crowds). Both these acts are things that Joshua also did, be it that his walls were Jericho's. Price, in his inimitable way, concludes from this that "there was some currently available category like a 'Joshua Messiah,' a 'Jesus Christ.'"

He then extends this, to give the following little list of what we could call "Jesus templates":

Quote:

Jesus ben-Ananias, Simon bar-Giora, Carrabas, "Josua Messiahs" Theudas and the Egyptian, Jesus ben-Sapphiah the bandit chief, Jesus bar-Abbas the insurrectionist, Elymas bar-Jesus the sorcerer, Jesus Justus, and the martyred Samaritan Messiah.

There are quite a few actual Jesuses in the list, so there is no shortage for "Jesus template" candidates. This strengthens a by now well-belabored point: if you want to talk about an HJ you have to be specific.

Gerard Stafleu

Gundulf · 12-16-2006, 06:26 PM

Perhaps this was even the inspiration for the virgin birth story!

"Joshua son of None Nun..."

krosero · 12-16-2006, 10:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malachi151

If Joshua = Yeshua and Jesus = Iesous = Yeshua

then wouldn't this be a likely inspiration for "Jesus the anointed" as savior?

The earliest versions of 20th-century mythicism, per Doherty, went along this route.

This is a quote from Doherty's essay, Alleged Scholarly Refutations of Jesus Mythicism:

Quote:

Perhaps the primary feature of the various mythicist cases put forward at the beginning of the 20th century involved the postulation that there was a pre-Christian Jewish sect or mystery cult centering on the biblical figure of Joshua (in Hebrew, the same name as Jesus, “Yeshua”). He had, so the theory went, been turned into a savior-god of the dying and rising variety, and some rituals associated with him were formalized in a drama that was eventually regarded as historical. In the more Gentile milieu of the Diaspora, this Joshua evolved into the Christian Jesus, who acquired an historical life and setting in the time of Pontius Pilate.

Virtually all of the early refuters of mythicism focused first and foremost on this postulation of a pre-Christian cult, pointing out that there was no documentary evidence of such a thing, beyond the claimed ‘hints’ pointed at by mythologists. This is one reason why such refutations are largely out of date; they address a dead issue. No mythicist today holds to a pre-Christian Joshua cult, for which there is no direct evidence.

The link above by Toto points to a variation on this idea, and not a mere retread, if I've read Toto's review correctly.

Kevin Rosero

Anat · 12-17-2006, 12:13 AM

Gundulf, in case it makes you wonder, Nun means fish ...

Clivedurdle · 12-17-2006, 03:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anat

Gundulf, in case it makes you wonder, Nun means fish ...

http://www.jesuspolice.com/common_error.php?id=1

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12-16-2006, 06:36 AM	#2
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	I also would like to develop the concept of annointed or annointing war priest king. Joshua does fit that. It would be logical that such a person would be a "son of David" who is clearly described as a highly trained and skilled warrior who became king. The priestly stuff is a bit vague - should be Levites and Cohens but hey, Cyrus got pulled in, so we can leave some wiggle room. But the gospels, Paul do not describe a warrior priest king - Revelation does and Paul, Hebrews have bits of this - every knee shall bow. If there is an historic Jesus I think he has to be a warrior priest king - who best fits that? Flashbacks to Joshua, David, whoever else in a syncretic way makes more sense. Although when and where and why the Jewish Hercules got castrated is an interesting question. Many Eunuchs continued as very successful generals - why Gospel Jesus does not is a fascinating question!

12-16-2006, 06:26 PM	#5
Gundulf Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Spain Posts: 2,902	Perhaps this was even the inspiration for the virgin birth story! "Joshua son of None Nun..."

12-17-2006, 12:13 AM	#7
Anat Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: home Posts: 3,715	Gundulf, in case it makes you wonder, Nun means fish ...

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