Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Malachi151 · 04-26-2008, 01:46 PM

Quote:

Who has explored for example if Peter is Mark's name for Paul?

That wouldn't make any sense. Mark is anti-Peter, just as Paul was anti-Peter. Peter being Paul is nonsense.

Solo · 04-26-2008, 02:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeWallack

You Took The Words Right Out Of My Mouth

JW:
Criteria:

Paul's likely first extant writing 1 Thessalonians, second paragraph (English):

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php/1_Thessalonians_1

JW:
The emphasis of the first paragraph was the Delivery of the Gospel. The emphasis of the second paragraph here is the Reception of the Gospel. The parallel in "Mark" is The Parable of the Vineyard:

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php/Mark_12

JW:
Key words comparison:

http://www.zhubert.com/bible?book=1%...pter=2&verse=1

http://www.zhubert.com/bible?book=Ma...ter=12&verse=1

1) Shamefully treated = Paul/ὑβρισθέντες (1.2) "Mark"/�*τίμασαν (12.4) Synonym

2) killed the Lord Jesus = Paul/κύριον ἀποκτεινάντων Ἰησοῦν (2:15) "Mark"/κἀκεῖνον ἀπέκτειναν (12:5) Same word, different form

3) drove out = Paul/ἐκδιωξάντων (2:15) "Mark"/ἐξέβαλον (12:8) Synonym

Thus we have good parallels for key words between the second paragraph of
1 Thessalonians and "Mark".

Joseph

FAITH, n.
Belief without evidence in what is told by one who speaks without knowledge, of things without parallel.

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php/Main_Page

IF this is valid it would be an argument for the authenticity of 1Thessalonians 1:14-16. (which is regarded by some as a post-Pauline interpolation.)

Andrew Criddle

I don't think so. Mark's parable of the vineyard is as transparently vaticinium ex eventu, as 1Th 2:14-16 is anachronistic to Paul ('God's wrath has come upon them at last!'). Given the curious stylistic similarities, if there is dependency, my bet would be that the 1 Thess interpolator knew of Mark's vineyard.

Jiri

Clivedurdle · 04-26-2008, 02:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malachi151

Quote:

Who has explored for example if Peter is Mark's name for Paul?

That wouldn't make any sense. Mark is anti-Peter, just as Paul was anti-Peter. Peter being Paul is nonsense.

Not necessarily if Peter was an invented fall guy and with Chinese whispers who did what was confused.

andrewcriddle · 04-26-2008, 03:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Solo

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

IF this is valid it would be an argument for the authenticity of 1Thessalonians 1:14-16. (which is regarded by some as a post-Pauline interpolation.)

Andrew Criddle

I don't think so. Mark's parable of the vineyard is as transparently vaticinium ex eventu, as 1Th 2:14-16 is anachronistic to Paul ('God's wrath has come upon them at last!'). Given the curious stylistic similarities, if there is dependency, my bet would be that the 1 Thess interpolator knew of Mark's vineyard.

Jiri

I have considered the idea that that phrase 'God's wrath has come upon them at last!' is post-Pauline but the rest authentic.

IIUC there is some (very limited) Latin support for omitting 'God's wrath has come upon them at last!' See http://groups.yahoo.com/group/textua...m/message/3474

Andrew Criddle

JoeWallack · 04-27-2008, 01:17 PM

You Took The Words Right Out Of My Mouth

JW:
Criteria:

Quote:

2. Similarity in language
Lexical repetitions or synonyms. Rare words are more likely to be significant. Consider synonyms, too. Are compound forms forms apparently used as intentional parallels to their original forms?

Paul's likely first extant writing 1 Thessalonians, third paragraph (English):

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php/1_Thessalonians_3

Quote:

3:1 Wherefore when we could no longer forbear, we thought it good to be left behind at Athens alone;

3:2 and sent Timothy, our brother and God`s minister in the gospel of Christ, to establish you, and to comfort [you] concerning your faith;

3:3 that no man be moved by these afflictions; for yourselves know that hereunto we are appointed.

3:4 For verily, when we were with you, we told you beforehand that we are to suffer affliction; even as it came to pass, and ye know.

3:5 For this cause I also, when I could no longer forbear, sent that I might know your faith, lest by any means the tempter had tempted you, and our labor should be in vain.

3:6 But when Timothy came even now unto us from you, and brought us glad tidings of your faith and love, and that ye have good remembrance of us always, longing to see us, even as we also [to see] you;

3:7 for this cause, brethren, we were comforted over you in all our distress and affliction through your faith:

3:8 for now we live, if ye stand fast in the Lord.

3:9 For what thanksgiving can we render again unto God for you, for all the joy wherewith we joy for your sakes before our God;

3:10 night and day praying exceedingly that we may see your face, and may perfect that which is lacking in your faith?

3:11 Now may our God and Father himself, and our Lord Jesus, direct our way unto you:

3:12 and the Lord make you to increase and abound in love one toward another, and toward all men, even as we also [do] toward you;

3:13 to the end he may establish your hearts unblameable in holiness before our God and Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus with all his saints.

JW:
The emphasis of the first paragraph was the Delivery of the Gospel. The emphasis of the second paragraph was the Reception of the Gospel. The emphasis of the third paragraph here is the Message of the Gospel, Enduring in Affliction. The parallel in "Mark" is The Passion Prediction:

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php/Mark_8

Quote:

8:27 And Jesus went forth, and his disciples, into the villages of Caesarea Philippi: and on the way he asked his disciples, saying unto them, Who do men say that I am?

8:28 And they told him, saying, John the Baptist; and others, Elijah; but others, One of the prophets.

8:29 And he asked them, But who say ye that I am? Peter answereth and saith unto him, Thou art the Christ.

8:30 And he charged them that they should tell no man of him.

8:31 And he began to teach them, that the Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected by the elders, and the chief priests, and the scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again.

8:32 And he spake the saying openly. And Peter took him, and began to rebuke him.

8:33 But he turning about, and seeing his disciples, rebuked Peter, and saith, Get thee behind me, Satan; for thou mindest not the things of God, but the things of men.

8:34 And he called unto him the multitude with his disciples, and said unto them, If any man would come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

8:35 For whosoever would save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel`s shall save it.

8:36 For what doth it profit a man, to gain the whole world, and forfeit his life?

8:37 For what should a man give in exchange for his life?

8:38 For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of man also shall be ashamed of him, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.

JW:
Key words comparison:

http://www.zhubert.com/bible?book=1%...pter=3&verse=1

http://www.zhubert.com/bible?book=Ma...pter=8&verse=1

1) Philippi = Paul/Φιλίπποις (2.2) "Mark"/Καισαρείας τῆς Φιλίππου (8.27) Same word, different form. Philippi vs. Caesarea Philippi. The places before.

2) the tempter = Paul/ὁ πειράζων (3:5) "Mark"/Σατανᾶ (8.33) Sinonym

3) holy = Paul/ἁγίων (3:13) "Mark"/ἁγίων (8:38) Match

4) Timothy = Paul/Τιμοθέου (3:6) "Mark"/Τιμαίου (10:46) Same name, different form. Timothy vs. Son of Timaeus. The person before (the Passion).

Tempter/Satan and "holy" are common words in religious writings but the use and placement of Philippi vs. Caesarea Philippi and Timothy vs. Son of Timaeus
is ReMarkable.Thus we have good parallels for key words between the third paragraph (Philippi is in the previous paragraph) of 1 Thessalonians and "Mark".

Joseph

FAITH, n.
Belief without evidence in what is told by one who speaks without knowledge, of things without parallel.

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php/Main_Page

JoeWallack · 04-28-2008, 07:24 AM

You Took The Words Right Out Of My Mouth

JW:
Criteria:

Quote:

2. Similarity in language
Lexical repetitions or synonyms. Rare words are more likely to be significant. Consider synonyms, too. Are compound forms forms apparently used as intentional parallels to their original forms?

Paul's likely first extant writing 1 Thessalonians, fourth paragraph (English):

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php/1_Thessalonians_4

Quote:

4:1 Finally then, brethren, we beseech and exhort you in the Lord Jesus, that, as ye received of us how ye ought to walk and to please God, even as ye do walk, --that ye abound more and more.

4:2 For ye know what charge we gave you through the Lord Jesus.

4:3 For this is the will of God, [even] your sanctification, that ye abstain from fornication;

4:4 that each one of you know how to possess himself of his own vessel in sanctification and honor,

4:5 not in the passion of lust, even as the Gentiles who know not God;

4:6 that no man transgress, and wrong his brother in the matter: because the Lord is an avenger in all these things, as also we forewarned you and testified.

4:7 For God called us not for uncleanness, but in sanctification.

4:8 Therefore he that rejecteth, rejecteth not man, but God, who giveth his Holy Spirit unto you.

4:9 But concerning love of the brethren ye have no need that one write unto you: for ye yourselves are taught of God to love one another;

4:10 for indeed ye do it toward all the brethren that are in all Macedonia. But we exhort you, brethren, that ye abound more and more;

4:11 and that ye study to be quiet, and to do your own business, and to work with your hands, even as we charged you;

4:12 that ye may walk becomingly toward them that are without, and may have need of nothing.

4:13 But we would not have you ignorant, brethren, concerning them that fall asleep; that ye sorrow not, even as the rest, who have no hope.

4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also that are fallen asleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we that are alive, that are left unto the coming of the Lord, shall in no wise precede them that are fallen asleep.

4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven, with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first;

4:17 then we that are alive, that are left, shall together with them be caught up in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

JW:
The emphasis of the first paragraph was the Delivery of the Gospel. The emphasis of the second paragraph was the Reception of the Gospel. The emphasis of the third paragraph was the Message of the Gospel, Enduring in Affliction. The emphasis of the fourth here is the Reward of the Gospel. The parallel in "Mark" is the End of the l.a. (little apocalypse):

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php/Mark_13

Quote:

13:26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in clouds with great power and glory.

13:27 And then shall he send forth the angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

JW:
Key words comparison:

http://www.zhubert.com/bible?book=1%...ter=4&verse=16

http://www.zhubert.com/bible?book=Ma...er=13&verse=26

1) Heaven = Paul/οὐρανοῦ (4.16) "Mark"/οὐρανοῦ (13.27) Match

2) Angel = Paul/ἀρχαγγέλου (4:16) "Mark"/ἀγγέλους (13.27) Closely related words

3) Clouds = Paul/νεφέλαις (4:17) "Mark"/νεφέλαις (13:26) Match

Thus we have good parallels for key words between the fourth paragraph of 1 Thessalonians and "Mark".

Joseph

FAITH, n.
Belief without evidence in what is told by one who speaks without knowledge, of things without parallel.

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php/Main_Page

Solo · 04-28-2008, 01:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

Quote:

Originally Posted by Solo

I don't think so. Mark's parable of the vineyard is as transparently vaticinium ex eventu, as 1Th 2:14-16 is anachronistic to Paul ('God's wrath has come upon them at last!'). Given the curious stylistic similarities, if there is dependency, my bet would be that the 1 Thess interpolator knew of Mark's vineyard.

Jiri

I have considered the idea that that phrase 'God's wrath has come upon them at last!' is post-Pauline but the rest authentic.

IIUC there is some (very limited) Latin support for omitting 'God's wrath has come upon them at last!' See http://groups.yahoo.com/group/textua...m/message/3474

Andrew Criddle

Thanks for the link, Andrew.

As for splitting the passage into genuine and interpolated, again I am skeptical. At least, in our topic, discussing the possible dependency of Mk 12 on 1 Th 2, it does not seem to work. There is a fourth correspondence between the two passages that JW omitted (or missed) -> In Mk 12:9 the lord of the vineyard will come (ελευσεται) and destroy the husbandmen; in Th 2:16, the wrath [of the Lord] has [already] come (εφθασεν) on the Jews. It would be hard to argue that if the passages in Mark 12:6-8 are stylistically coupled to 1 Thess 2:14-15, the identical punchline and similarity in phrasing of Mk 12:9 vs 1 Th 2:16 are purely coincidental.

To my mind, the view that 1 Thess 2:14-16 are at loggerheads with Pauline "inclusive" Christ and coming from someone who knew Mark's passion narrative, makes much more sense.

Incidentally, would not Rom 2:5/2:9 written well after 1 Thessalonians be enough to convince you that in Paul's mind the judgment (for the Jews also) was still ahead ?

Jiri

Ben C Smith · 04-28-2008, 01:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

I have considered the idea that that phrase 'God's wrath has come upon them at last!' is post-Pauline but the rest authentic.

That is an interesting option.

IIUC, this passage is present in Marcion, right?

Ben.

andrewcriddle · 04-28-2008, 09:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ben C Smith

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

I have considered the idea that that phrase 'God's wrath has come upon them at last!' is post-Pauline but the rest authentic.

That is an interesting option.

IIUC, this passage is present in Marcion, right?

Ben.

The passage is certainly in Marcion. I don't know if there is evidence as to whether on not 'God's wrath has come upon them at last!' was in Marcion's text or not.

Andrew Criddle

andrewcriddle · 04-28-2008, 09:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Solo

Incidentally, would not Rom 2:5/2:9 written well after 1 Thessalonians be enough to convince you that in Paul's mind the judgment (for the Jews also) was still ahead ?

Jiri

a/ This would only seem an argument against 'God's wrath has come upon them at last!' not the whole passage.
b/ I don't see it as impossible for Paul to be using the judgment/wrath of God to refer to more than one thing.

Andrew Criddle

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