Contemptuoso

Hello. I have a question about the biblical representation of god. Before i begin i would like to express that i may be slightly ignorant of the facts involved here as this question arose during a debate with a christian friend of mine and not as a result of my reading the bible. If there is a glaringly obvious answer please excuse me and point me in the direction of the info i need. i have asked this question of a few christians and don't seem to get what i would deem a satisfactory answer. If the biblical god is all good and all knowing then why did he create Lucifer? I understand that Lucifer, like man, had free will but an all knowing god would have predicted Lucifers path and as far as i can see, if the Devil was never created, mankind and god would be better off for it. I realise that i am not supposed to be able to empathise with god but i would say that this should have been explained in the bible.

I would just like to express my respect for this website. It has been a source of great inspiration to me in my search for the truth regarding these matters.

Thank you.

Dan.

Chili

Hi Dan, first a warm welcome to the Internet Infidels where somebody just might know exactly what you are looking for.

The obvious answer is that Lucifer was banned from heaven to be the source of light for man who would be banned from Eden to gather beauty and truth for God's pleasure and fulfillment. "All good and all knowing" does not exactly mean that everything is known but it just means that whatever we have knowledge of is known and since God is all good it is not possible to increase knowledge in Eden itself (knowledge is a product of sin). Hence, in his infinite wisdom God knew that man would need a light to illuminate his day and created Lucifer to be this light.

Yes, it did cost us free will but that is exactly what makes opposition a challenge and once we have conquered some of that we can just pretend to be in charge of our own destiny.

Would man be better off? It would be peacefull and quiet but would also end with the first generation. This would be based on the idea that all is created in sin and with no sin in heaven nothing else would be created.

Contemptuoso

Thank you for you reply.

Are you saying that Lucifer was created so that man could choose god over him? The idea that nothing would be created without sin in heaven, does that come from a spiritual law that god has to follow? if not, Why not create an alternative? Does the biblical statement (forgive me if this is not a biblical statement, but to my understanding something like it is suggested) that god is all good mean good as defined by humans today? Thank you in advance for taking the time to answer my questions. I realise that you may have had this discussion a thousand times and i appreciate your taking the time to increase my knowledge on the subject.

Wallener

Not according to the Hebrew texts. Lucifer is nothing more than a fully obedient servent of G-d completely incapable of rebelling against G-d.

Chili

Not exactly. Man was banned from Eden where he had to use his faculty of reason to make a living and in doing so he would increase the omniscience of God for generations to come. The best way to see this is that while we look at things objectively, God perceives what we expose subjectively. This would be the flip side of us paying for the sins of our fathers who can make our life equal to hell on earth.

Main Entry: 1sub·jec·tive
Pronunciation: (")s&b-'jek-tiv

2 : of or relating to the essential being of that which has substance, qualities, attributes, or relations

3 a : characteristic of or belonging to reality as perceived rather than as independent of mind : PHENOMENAL -- compare OBJECTIVE 1b b : relating to or being experience or knowledge as conditioned by personal mental characteristics or states


God made us co-creator in Gen.3 to modify his creations. For this we need to be outside of Eden where reason must prevail (in heaven intuition rules without needs or wants and therefore no creation takes place in heaven).

Natural law prevails in heaven where we are set free from religious slavery and sin. Our 'good' is different as it has a social construct to it. In heaven, as Gods in our own right, are we non-social and can enjoy everything for its own sake.

Perhaps he could have, but there is nothing wrong with decorating our own heaven while we are on earth. I would be afraid that if we had to go to someone else's heaven we would not recognize it once we got there.

No, this is my first time and I may not give you the right answer.

Chili

Was Lucifer banned from heaven while in service to God? The name Lucifer does not allow that, does it?

Contemptuoso

I don't understand what is meant by man increasing the omniscience of god. How can you increase omniscience?

what do you mean when you say decorating our own heaven? Why would an alternative exclude that possibility? Is there a defined concept of heaven in the bible?

Toto

The God of the Hebrew Scriptures is not omniscient nor omnipotent. (These are later philosophical concepts that some try to read back into that God.) He created Adam and Eve, who were able to disobey him, and hide from him in his garden. (Can you hide from an omniscient God?)

You might find more information here:Religious Tolerance on Satan: an Early History

Contemptuoso

Thats interesting. I have spoken to christian preachers who seemed to have a very deep understanding of the bible and they apparently believe that the biblical god is omnipotent. I really used to dismiss most supernatural belief as unreasonable, by unreasonable i mean that without some emotional blindfold to disguise the gaps in the logic there would be no believers, until i met one particular christian who could answer all of my questions pretty convincingly previously i had received the typical answers people with no real defence give when attempting to defend their belief systems. but this one christian changed my opinion on the subject which led me to this site, among others and now i am fairly obsessed with such matters.

Chili

Well if God is the unknown element in our life the omniscience of God exists in our soul which has been accumulating there for [up to] One Thousand Years through the exposure of things as they are (the subjective essence of things in their own nature). This would be as perceived by the eye of the soul of our ancestors while they were in the objective search for food, knowledge and beauty as per Gen.3:6. In other words, from their TOK (Tree of Knowledge) into our TOL (Tree of Life) as virtues of the clan (to juxtapose this with the sins of our forefathers).

You may have noticed that it is retained there by the woman who is 'a chip of the old block' since she was taken from her man. This makes her the Queen of Heaven once we get there and place our relatively small contribution subservient to her storehouse of wisdom. John called this the Alpha and Omega.

Omniscience means to know all that we can have knowledge of and makes reference to our own mansion in heaven . . . which will be different than your mansion, obviously.

I am not sure if there is a defined concept of heaven in the bible but Jesus showed us how to get there and Rev. 14:13 suggests that "good works" are needed to get there -- which will require an explanation on its own, once we are there. In other words, we will have a story to tell as testator (Hebrews 9:15).