temporalillusion

I would like to see your definitions here on how right vs. wrong is so fundamentally different than good vs. evil, and where the story says that the first was given.

Mankind doesn't get to make their own decisions, by your words all of mankind is condemned to an eternity of suffering because of a choice they did not personally make.

Or are you OK with you going to prison because of a crime a distant ancestor committed?

And even then, mankind doesn't get to make their own decisions because there's nothing to decide against... to make a decision you need variables to evaluate and criteria by which to evaluate against. But God hides for most people so they can't make a decision.

PLUS even the courts do not hold anyone to a decision made under duress.. if I put a gun to your head and tell you to sign your car over to me, that's not a real decision, it's coercion. God says you have to decide for him or you burn for all eternity.. that's not free will, that's coercion.

Genesis reads more like a school age playground morality or animal morality; all based on authority and punishment.

See, "do what I want or you get punishment". So prehistoric.

So God was incapable of creating a greater good without creating evil too? God is limited as to what he can do then? Who created those limits?

So evil and the ability to disobey God is a requirement for free will, but in heaven there is no wrong or evil, but in heaven there is still free will?

Without further clarification your statements contradict themselves.

Wait a second... here you equate "right from wrong" and "good vs. evil", but..

Here you say they are different!

So which is it?

spin

You have a responsibility to be able to answer such a question. If you cannot say how you know something in an objective manner, then you don't know it at all.

Which are "these large nations"? You are not supposed to manipulate the truth.

"You shall have no other god beside me." (Ex 20:3) That means that there are other gods, but you can't worship them.


spin

IBelieveInHymn

Right and wrong differ from good and evil. It's right of me to give that old man his wallet back. It would be wrong of me to keep it. It's good that we give thanks to God. It's evil to murder someone.



Mankind makes it's own choices.. You choose to be seperated from God for eternity. That is your expression of freewill.

Huh? You can repent!! :huh:

No, God says believe in Me and I will grant you a crown of life. If you disbelieve in him, he shall grant your wishes, and you will live all eternity without him. As you wish.

God can do as he pleases.



There is no such thing as freewill in Heaven. You are in a place of peace and glory.. there is no such thing as evil, sin and wrong.

Not a chance.

Satan opened their eyes to evil and sin.

I've explained it.

gdeering

Good and evil differ from right and wrong. It's good of me to give that old man his wallet back. It would be evil of me to keep it. It's right that we give thanks to God. It's wrong to murder someone.

You keep'em coming, I think you need more detail.

badger3k

So, it seems to be a matter of degree? Isn't it evil to keep the old man's wallet? Isn't that theft, a sin, isn't that evil? If not, then we are being punished for being wrong, but not evil? Wha?


I'm not going to open the can of worms this is here, but it would be fascinating to see the contortions you'd go through.
For a crime your ancestor did? How are you responsible for his actions?
Basically, God is a bully who can do what he wants since he has the biggest...p...ower. Got it.

So why is free will so important now, if you lose it later. This theology does fit in with the Zombie Jesus theology, so in a way it makes sense. Go to heaven, have your mind blasted and all your thoughts are filled with worshipping the monster that destroyed you. YHVH is Azathoth!
Of you thinking?
Which is why, as the bible points out, their eyes were opened AFTER they are of the fruit of the tree. Huh? Oh, sorry, that contradicts what you believe happened, so it must be another of those mistranslations that aren't mistranslations.

No, you punted and said they were different, while you showed no such thing. Theft is wrong, but not evil? Murder is evil, but not wrong?

Have we always been at war with Oceana? I do think Orwell could have used you as inspiration. That's not a compliment.

badger3k

No - as I point out in my comment, Murder is evil, but not wrong. I guess I left out the part that makes it all part of Gods plan, which would make it right. But then, keeping the wallet is part of Gods plan...but...but....

(damn, we need a smiley that has a head exploding, but I guess this will do:
:banghead: )

Sheshbazzar

Interesting, what ever verse(s) did you derive this from?
Or did you just take a quick trip up to Third Heaven to check out the living conditions for yourself?

No free will in Heaven? ...... so its only the lobotomized, no longer able to make any choices, so get to live 'happily' ever after..
Thanks, but no thanks. Don't want no part in your f***ed-up, mindless zombie heaven.

And yet -another- Christian 'heaven' gets added to my growing list of weird and wacky Christian 'Heavens'.

WilliamFearless

There's the Christian attitude we all know and love!

temporalillusion

You've just given examples of things that differ in terms of degree, you haven't defined them or explained the fundamental difference.

It's evil to murder someone, but what if I kill him to save 10 others? What if he asks me to? What if I just half murder him? Beat him unconscious? Beat him silly? Bruise him? Punch his face? Slap him? Flick his ear? Annoy him with an annoying sound? Call him ugly?

What criteria do I use to determine if an act is wrong or if it is evil? Based out of the creation story since this is all related to first sin.

Definitions please, since your whole theology is based on this.

Please explain to me when I made such a choice. Seems to me that my own free will is being violated by condemning me for a crime I did not commit.

Repentance does not equal absolution of responsibility, you know that. A murderer can repent but still has to go to jail.

Answer the question. If your deceased great great grandfather was all of a sudden found guilty of treason is it right and just to hang you for that crime?

Sure, except that eternity without him just happens to be eternal torment, a disproportionate and therefore unjust response.

There's this girl I like.. I say to her, marry me and I will grant you my fortune. If you don't then I'll lock you in my basement forever. When the police come I'll just say, hey, I just gave her a choice and she chose, it's not my fault, she had free will.

Interesting how the consequences of the theology and morality you create fly in the face of enlightened society.. either God is really that bad, or maybe, just maybe, it's because the Bible was written by people with a very different understanding of right and wrong... a very poor one by modern standards.

So God was capable of creating a greater good without creating evil too, but just decided not to. Which means God created evil because he wanted to, sent billions of souls to damnation because he wanted to. By your own reasoning.

That sounds evil in itself to me.

So the whole "God didn't want to create robots" thing is a lie after all! God DID want to create robots, since everyone will be a robot when they get to heaven.

So why the whole "make your choice" thing on earth? If God wants robots, just create robots! What point is there of allowing people free will for a short time? If everyone ends up a robot, it's not like filtering out the "good" robots from the "bad" robots has any point.

What's your scripture reference BTW for there being no free will in heaven?


I submit this as evidence that you think you are right no matter what.

I said without clarification your statements contradicted themselves.. you say they didn't contradict themselves, then you proceeded to add clarification that resolved the contradiction (although resolving it the way you did has other unpleasant consequences as above)!

No, eating the fruit did that. You said Satan fooled them. I guess people who are fooled should still be 100% responsible for their mistakes even if they are fooled. So much for compassion.

No, you haven't. In one statement you used right vs. wrong and good vs. evil in such a way that says they are the same, but you also claim they are different (without providing any definitions or criteria). So you still need to explain it.

Explain doesn't mean saying they're different.

temporalillusion

Are you kidding, by IBIH's definition wrong is WAY worse than evil.

If you are evil, you just go to hell for eternity. If you are wrong, you condemn every single one of your billions upon billions of ancestors to hell for eternity.

Frack, I'd hate to know what the punishment for an accident is! Good thing Adam didn't trip and have the apple fall into his mouth by accident, that might have resulted in a infinite # of universes being created just so their residents could be condemned.