judge

One of the great ironies is that although some groups fervently suport Israel as a"nation" because they beleive it is foretold also beleive that this 'final conflict" will result in the deaths of many many jews in this final conflict.

Nialler

But I've seen the "phrophecy" used to justify Jewish settlement in the area. Self-fulfilling, if not circular, methinks. For a "phrophecy" to have any impact it should be unknown before the deeds.

DrJim

Texty says:
So what wrong did they do to deserve the Holocaust? what right did they do to reclaim thier land? How many jews have to be righteous for good stuff to happen? What percentage have to do wrong to have God inflict "justice" on the whole lot?

Mike Rosoft

Plus, everything that is going on in the world today was predicted in the Bible!

Really? Where exactly does the Bible predict the fall of the communist regimes in East Europe?

I challenge you.


Mike Rosoft

Texty

Hi Jim
Your questions look simple, but I have no crisp simple replies to them, I find it difficult myself to understand God so my foggy thoughts are presented as I see the Bible teaching.

Firstly wrong behaviour has its consequences 1/ on the individual 2/ on his/her family and 3/ on his/her Nation. (e.g. charging an extortionate rate for interest can generate both resentment and/or jealousy on the part of the borrower. Trashing an ancient olive grove owned by a palestinian family for centuries will inevitably stir up bitter feelings) God gives individuals both freedom and responsibility for their actions.
That's the easy bit. However, life is not simple! Since God has given freedom of will, this must mean that the innocent suffer with the guily. If a family pursues a stupid blood feud, ALL members will risk suffering for the foolish actions of an individual, and if a nation is foolishly led into an ill advised war, a perfectly innocent citizen may suffer tragedy as a result.

These principles can be seen in both the diaspora and the 20th century return and the principles of Deut 28 .
Now look at these closing verses:-

The LORD shall scatter thee among all people, from the one end of the earth even unto the other; and there thou shalt serve other gods, which neither thou nor thy fathers have known, even wood and stone. And among these nations shalt thou find no ease, neither shall the sole of thy foot have rest: but the LORD shall give thee there a trembling heart, and failing of eyes, and sorrow of mind: And thy life shall hang in doubt before thee; and thou shalt fear day and night, and shalt have none assurance of thy life: In the morning thou shalt say, Would God it were even! and at even thou shalt say, Would God it were morning! for the fear of thine heart wherewith thou shalt fear, and for the sight of thine eyes which thou shalt see. (vv64-67)

A later Prophet Ezekiel gave the solution to this curse:

Then will I (God) sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean..... A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God. I will also save you from all your uncleannesses: and I will call for the corn, and will increase it, and lay no famine upon you. And I will multiply the fruit of the tree, and the increase of the field, that ye shall receive no more reproach of famine among the heathen. Then shall ye remember your own evil ways, and your doings that were not good, and shall lothe yourselves in your own sight for your iniquities and for your abominations. Not for your sakes do I this, saith the Lord GOD, be it known unto you: be ashamed and confounded for your own ways, O house of Israel. (vv 25-32)

I have to say that as a nation I can't see the current occupation fulfilling the terms of blessing and furthermore the promises about the land are conditional and not a right. They seem frankly to have been creating the very ghettos and pales from which they have sought to escape and placed their trust in superior armed forces.

DrJim

Texty says about my previous post:Yo also seem not to understand the simple point of my simple questions. How do you know Jewish misfortunes and occassional fortunes over the centuries are directly attributable to their piety or lack thereof? How do you evaluate this? You say in your first post that the prsence of the state of Israel confirms the biblical prophetic prediction.

In your last post you say:

This seems to contradict your first claims.
So if the "current occupation" does not fulfill predictions of the blessing about a penitent nation returning to its conditional homeland, then how can I take your first post seriously?

Texty

Jim wrote
As I see it, there is a framework of blessing and cursing in Deuteronomy - this book does not actually pomise a return after being scattered. (well overtly promise anyway) but clearly the prophets do and that return DOES NOT NECCESSARILY mean Israel has earned a blessing. Israel is predominantly agnostic and they have returned (as a whole) in unbelief. Now note my quote from Ezekiel distinctly says the ultimate blessing (still to come) is undeserved ("not for your sakes do I this".)

external solipsism

You know, when I was a kid I once had a dream that I was eating pancakes. And just last week, I was visiting my aunt and she made me pancakes for breakfast. My dream came true. I guess that makes me a psychic.

DrJim

Pychic? I need more proof. Without more details, its all waffle(s)...

Were the dream pancakes and Aunty-pancakes plain or blueberry? Were the served with maple syrup? did you use butter or margarine?
If your dream was right in all the details, then you are more of prophet than a mere psychic! (and note that your had a dream aobut about pancakes and not bacon and eggs, which would not be kosher, so you are potentially closer to the OT prophet than you might have first guessed...) Oh, yeah, this can be significant.

JRL

Texty

Jim wrote
No! this post was from Alias. I wouldn't phrase it that way, it's one of the many ways in which the veracity of the Bible is shown.