Freethought & Rationalism Archive

stephan huller · 06-09-2011, 02:32 PM

I think I have found the 'missing link' to prove that our copy of Irenaeus's Against Heresies - while existing in an earlier form known still to Hippolytus, the author of the Philosophumena (whom I take to be another person) and Photius - was ultimately redacted in the fourth century. I think my developing proof is quite compelling, confirming serious doubts that the reports which now appear there with respect to the Simonians, Basilideans, Carpocratians, Cerinthians, Ebionites, Nicolatians, Cerdonians or Marcionites were ever written by Irenaeus.

http://stephanhuller.blogspot.com/20...resies_09.html

I think this is the best attempt to figure out the original text of Irenaeus's writings so far. It also means that the account of the heresies as we know them aren't as certain as we once thought.

mountainman · 06-09-2011, 05:11 PM

Fascinating groundwork to the reconstruction of the 'invention' of the source known as 'Irenaeus'. The next exposition sounds interesting.

Quote:

As we shall see in our next exposition by carrying out a closer examination on the material not found in Against the Valentinians these changes were most likely done in the fourth century.

stephan huller · 06-09-2011, 06:57 PM

Yes but it would be senseless to think that the original 'lectures' were invented in the fourth century. Its the cento reference that's key. I talked to a number of experts in the field and they all kept pointing to the fourth century as the only period where Irenaeus AH 1.9 makes any sense or at least would seem more natural:

http://stephanhuller.blogspot.com/20...tt-mcgill.html

I am not saying that the texts were invented in the fourth century. Rather that someone modified a pre-existing arrangement then. Photius is really interesting in this regard. More on that later.

mountainman · 06-09-2011, 09:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

Its the cento reference that's key. I talked to a number of experts in the field and they all kept pointing to the fourth century as the only period where Irenaeus AH 1.9 makes any sense or at least would seem more natural:

http://stephanhuller.blogspot.com/20...tt-mcgill.html

I had to look that up.
Cento from WIKI:

Quote:

A cento is a poetical work wholly composed of verses or passages taken from other authors; only disposed in a new form or order. Centos have been composed out of works by Homer, "Euripides, Vergil, Ovid, Cicero, Petrarch, Shakespeare, Goethe, and Emily Dickinson".[1]

History

The term comes from the Latin cento, a cloak made of patches; and that from the Greek κεντονιον. The Roman soldiers used these centones, or old stuffs patched over each other, to guard themselves from the strokes of their enemies. Others say, that centos were probably used for the patches of leather, etc, with which their galleries or screens, called vineae, were covered; under which the besiegers made their approaches towards any place. Hence centonarii, the people whose business was to prepare these centos.[2]

The cento originated in the 3rd or 4th century. The first known cento is the Medea by Hosidius Geta, composed out of Virgilian works, according to Tertullian.[3]

Ausonius (310–395) laid down the rules to be observed in composing centos. The pieces, he says, may be taken either from the same poet, or from several. The verses may be either taken in their entirety, or divided into two; one half to be connected with another half taken elsewhere. Two verses should never be used running, nor much less than half a verse be taken. In accordance with these rules, he made a cento from Virgil, the Cento Nuptialis.[2]

Faltonia Betitia Proba wrote a Cento vergilianus de laudibus Christi, in which she details the life of Jesus and deeds of the Old and New Testaments; it was written entirely in centos taken from Virgil.[2]

The Politics of Justus Lipsius (Politicorum Libri Sex, 1589) consist only of centos; there being nothing of his own but conjunctions and particles. Etienne de Pleure did the same as Proba in Sacra Aeneis (1618).[4] Alexander Ross did the same thing in his Virgilii Evangelisantis Christiados (1634)[5], his most celebrated work of poetry.

The following from your blog:

Quote:

Stephan Huller: Does the fact that gospel material was reworked in the manner of centos imply that the gospel itself was held to be of equal value to the writings of Virgil and Homer by those engaging in these activities?

Scott McGill: I would say certainly yes, and probably of more value, although we should be careful to distinguish between religious and secular texts.

Could you provide an example of what you mean when you say that the gospel material was reworked in the manner of centos? Are these additional texts, or are you talking about the new testament itself?

Quote:

I am not saying that the texts were invented in the fourth century. Rather that someone modified a pre-existing arrangement then.

I understand this.

Quote:

Photius is really interesting in this regard. More on that later.

Did the Gnostic use centos? Augustine c.399 CE in Contra Faustum Manichaeum (22:79) identified the author "Leucius", a "cobbler of fables".

aa5874 · 06-10-2011, 07:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

I think I have found the 'missing link' to prove that our copy of Irenaeus's Against Heresies - while existing in an earlier form known still to Hippolytus, the author of the Philosophumena (whom I take to be another person) and Photius - was ultimately redacted in the fourth century. I think my developing proof is quite compelling, confirming serious doubts that the reports which now appear there with respect to the Simonians, Basilideans, Carpocratians, Cerinthians, Ebionites, Nicolatians, Cerdonians or Marcionites were ever written by Irenaeus......

I TOLD YOU SO LONG AGO.

The writing called "Against Heresies" is NOT historically credible. "Against Heresies" is SEWAGE and could not have been used to argue against HERESIES in the 2nd century.

"Against Heresies" is a TOTAL Contradiction since it shows that there was virtually NO orthodoxy at all in the 2nd century.

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

....http://stephanhuller.blogspot.com/20...resies_09.html

I think this is the best attempt to figure out the original text of Irenaeus's writings so far. It also means that the account of the heresies as we know them aren't as certain as we once thought.

When exactly did you realize that "the account of the heresies as we know them aren't as certain as we once thought"?

I have been saying this FOR YEARS NOW.

Once people REALISE that information in "Against Heresies" were INSERTED later than the 2nd century then the TRUE HISTORY of the Church will BE EXPOSED.

"Against Heresies" was WHOLLY or in Part MANIPULATED to provide FALSE information about the History of the start of the Jesus cult of Christians.

The Extant records SHOW that ALL the NOISE from EXTERNAL non-apologetic sources about the Jesus cult of Christians and the Jesus story was in the LATE 2nd century which would signify that the Jesus story was INITIATED around that time.

As you imply, we have got to RUN SOME SEWER pipes through "Against Heresies"

stephan huller · 06-10-2011, 09:53 AM

Yes but like in the Shawshank Redemption we have to have an exact plan to successfully escape

06-09-2011, 02:32 PM	#1
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	My Tweaking of the Theory of the Fourth Century 'Invention' of Patristic Literature I think I have found the 'missing link' to prove that our copy of Irenaeus's Against Heresies - while existing in an earlier form known still to Hippolytus, the author of the Philosophumena (whom I take to be another person) and Photius - was ultimately redacted in the fourth century. I think my developing proof is quite compelling, confirming serious doubts that the reports which now appear there with respect to the Simonians, Basilideans, Carpocratians, Cerinthians, Ebionites, Nicolatians, Cerdonians or Marcionites were ever written by Irenaeus. http://stephanhuller.blogspot.com/20...resies_09.html I think this is the best attempt to figure out the original text of Irenaeus's writings so far. It also means that the account of the heresies as we know them aren't as certain as we once thought.

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06-09-2011, 06:57 PM	#3
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	Yes but it would be senseless to think that the original 'lectures' were invented in the fourth century. Its the cento reference that's key. I talked to a number of experts in the field and they all kept pointing to the fourth century as the only period where Irenaeus AH 1.9 makes any sense or at least would seem more natural: http://stephanhuller.blogspot.com/20...tt-mcgill.html I am not saying that the texts were invented in the fourth century. Rather that someone modified a pre-existing arrangement then. Photius is really interesting in this regard. More on that later.

06-10-2011, 09:53 AM	#6
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	Yes but like in the Shawshank Redemption we have to have an exact plan to successfully escape

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